Clipper's clippers?

[Clipper1701]

Indeed after the thread on the early clipper conversion my elves ran amuck!

http://i1106.photobucket.com/albums/h379/Revchaos/Mary%20Rose/SOG/20160505_071234_zpswq54fzx1.jpg (http://s1106.photobucket.com/user/Revchaos/media/Mary%20Rose/SOG/20160505_071234_zpswq54fzx1.jpg.html)

Finding lots of info on a series of Baltimore clippers the pictures were secured, a few Thorns procured and we are off and running!

http://i1106.photobucket.com/albums/h379/Revchaos/Mary%20Rose/SOG/20160505_071246_zpsb4h7rw24.jpg (http://s1106.photobucket.com/user/Revchaos/media/Mary%20Rose/SOG/20160505_071246_zpsb4h7rw24.jpg.html)

Ship photo of a large museum model happened to be side on, so it was reduced to our scale . . .

http://i1106.photobucket.com/albums/h379/Revchaos/Mary%20Rose/SOG/20160504_201010_zpsdokpe66h.jpg (http://s1106.photobucket.com/user/Revchaos/media/Mary%20Rose/SOG/20160504_201010_zpsdokpe66h.jpg.html)

The de-constructed Thorn and the scale size photo. Now to make the bits! Nice to have the sails (except the squares) ready as patterns . . . thinking stickers? Thinking air hardening clay? We will soon see what the elves are up to!

[Clipper1701]

Okay, the hulls are repainted, the sail stock painted, spar and mast plastic rods ready to cut, join, paint . . . . I can hardly wait! 4 clippers on the horizion!

http://i1106.photobucket.com/albums/h379/Revchaos/Mary%20Rose/SOG/20160506_170548_zpsmj40layz.jpg (http://s1106.photobucket.com/user/Revchaos/media/Mary%20Rose/SOG/20160506_170548_zpsmj40layz.jpg.html)

[Clipper1701]

Masts spliced on masking tape to keep the little "beasts" in place till the glue sets!

http://i1106.photobucket.com/albums/h379/Revchaos/Mary%20Rose/SOG/20160506_191539_zpswoev1aaa.jpg (http://s1106.photobucket.com/user/Revchaos/media/Mary%20Rose/SOG/20160506_191539_zpswoev1aaa.jpg.html)

[Clipper1701]

Sails, stack cut 4 sets at one time . . .

http://i1106.photobucket.com/albums/h379/Revchaos/Mary%20Rose/SOG/20160506_212141_zpsbnbolotk.jpg (http://s1106.photobucket.com/user/Revchaos/media/Mary%20Rose/SOG/20160506_212141_zpsbnbolotk.jpg.html)

Layout and cut out main square sails . . .

http://i1106.photobucket.com/albums/h379/Revchaos/Mary%20Rose/SOG/20160506_212148_zpscl12dory.jpg (http://s1106.photobucket.com/user/Revchaos/media/Mary%20Rose/SOG/20160506_212148_zpscl12dory.jpg.html)

Gluing sails to masts, handy bit of foam core to hold them . . .

http://i1106.photobucket.com/albums/h379/Revchaos/Mary%20Rose/SOG/20160506_212155_zpshkiyzgk3.jpg (http://s1106.photobucket.com/user/Revchaos/media/Mary%20Rose/SOG/20160506_212155_zpshkiyzgk3.jpg.html)

Spars glued to sails . . .

http://i1106.photobucket.com/albums/h379/Revchaos/Mary%20Rose/SOG/20160506_213437_zpsaupgzw79.jpg (http://s1106.photobucket.com/user/Revchaos/media/Mary%20Rose/SOG/20160506_213437_zpsaupgzw79.jpg.html)

Bow spirits . . . mast holes drilled . . .

http://i1106.photobucket.com/albums/h379/Revchaos/Mary%20Rose/SOG/20160506_214747_zps0zy9fbfi.jpg (http://s1106.photobucket.com/user/Revchaos/media/Mary%20Rose/SOG/20160506_214747_zps0zy9fbfi.jpg.html)

Square sails curled and added to front masts . . .

http://i1106.photobucket.com/albums/h379/Revchaos/Mary%20Rose/SOG/20160506_214801_zpsfws2msth.jpg (http://s1106.photobucket.com/user/Revchaos/media/Mary%20Rose/SOG/20160506_214801_zpsfws2msth.jpg.html)

Assembled so far X 4 . . .

http://i1106.photobucket.com/albums/h379/Revchaos/Mary%20Rose/SOG/20160506_220221_zpsrqkjsolv.jpg (http://s1106.photobucket.com/user/Revchaos/media/Mary%20Rose/SOG/20160506_220221_zpsrqkjsolv.jpg.html)

Let set overnight tomorrow we rig and add jibs etc!

http://i1106.photobucket.com/albums/h379/Revchaos/Mary%20Rose/SOG/20160506_220402_zps4weemfkf.jpg (http://s1106.photobucket.com/user/Revchaos/media/Mary%20Rose/SOG/20160506_220402_zps4weemfkf.jpg.html)

[Dobbs]

Keep it coming, Clipper!

[Nightmoss]

The elves have been busy for sure. :hatsoff:

[Clipper1701]

The night shift did some sails and rigging, still need the stays . . .

http://i1106.photobucket.com/albums/h379/Revchaos/Mary%20Rose/SOG/20160507_103812_zpszju3flql.jpg (http://s1106.photobucket.com/user/Revchaos/media/Mary%20Rose/SOG/20160507_103812_zpszju3flql.jpg.html)

http://i1106.photobucket.com/albums/h379/Revchaos/Mary%20Rose/SOG/20160507_103757_zpsbg2sdmrd.jpg (http://s1106.photobucket.com/user/Revchaos/media/Mary%20Rose/SOG/20160507_103757_zpsbg2sdmrd.jpg.html)

http://i1106.photobucket.com/albums/h379/Revchaos/Mary%20Rose/SOG/20160507_103740_zpsxwvsipng.jpg (http://s1106.photobucket.com/user/Revchaos/media/Mary%20Rose/SOG/20160507_103740_zpsxwvsipng.jpg.html)

The Clipper rule: If you are going to make one, its just as easy to make 4 or more . . . now to find names, I suppose the Thorn log will be fine . . .

http://i1106.photobucket.com/albums/h379/Revchaos/Mary%20Rose/SOG/20160507_103728_zps1srrrp3b.jpg (http://s1106.photobucket.com/user/Revchaos/media/Mary%20Rose/SOG/20160507_103728_zps1srrrp3b.jpg.html)

[Herkybird]

Glad the Elves were helping you rather than going of gallivanting with the Faeries! :wink:

[Torrence]

Wow, they are looking great! :thumbsup:

Have you thought about how their stats/manouvre-decks will look like?

[Clipper1701]

Wow, they are looking great! :thumbsup:

Have you thought about how their stats/manouvre-decks will look like?

Haven't a clue. Figure similar to the Thorn with only a few guns . . . should be fast though? Awaiting wisdom from the forum : )

[Bligh]

They look fine ships Dave.
I just hope my Thorn comes out looking as good.
Rob.

[Dobbs]

22764
Haven't a clue. Figure similar to the Thorn with only a few guns . . . should be fast though? Awaiting wisdom from the forum : )

Here is the Base Card I made for my schooner http://www.sailsofglory.org/showthread.php?4026-Ship-sloop-to-Baltimore-Clipper

My thought is that with the fore and aft rig, schooners were faster upwind, but not good running directly downwind. The blue band indicates using the next orange sail setting slower. Note that the ships use the "C" deck.

[Dobbs]

I kept the gun stats the same as Thorn, as it seems like schooner armaments were all over the place.

[Dobbs]

I think there might be some crew tweaking, but haven't looked into that yet...

[Dobbs]

By the way, Clipper, good job on the fisherman sails! I wrestled with whether or not to include them on my schooner, and chose not to. Still, I do think a clipper captain would probably crowd on all possible sail. I'm still considering adding the flying jib.

[KDz]

Outstanding job, David. :clap:
Models looks great.

[Clipper1701]

Thanks! I am grateful for the card and info, not being an educated sailor-have been free boarding on all your expertise! Just added a flash of color wash to make them each distinctive, now to the names . . . Desert Clipper, Burgundy Clipper, Bomb Bay Clipper, Patriot Clipper all being considered . . .

http://i1106.photobucket.com/albums/h379/Revchaos/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-05/20160508_084608_zpsbksqvxgl.jpg (http://s1106.photobucket.com/user/Revchaos/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-05/20160508_084608_zpsbksqvxgl.jpg.html)

http://i1106.photobucket.com/albums/h379/Revchaos/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-05/20160508_085304_zpst4unraeq.jpg (http://s1106.photobucket.com/user/Revchaos/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-05/20160508_085304_zpst4unraeq.jpg.html)

[Dobbs]

I like the paint jobs! I may have to make another schooner.

[Clipper1701]

So has anyone explored color printing the ship's card on clear plastic? A bit of tacky glue dots could secure the ship to the card for the game and be popped off afterwards, it would make the ships look like they are truly afloat . . . just wondering . . . I will ask on the general thread too : )

[Dobbs]

What about removing the pin on the ships, gluing the ships to the clear plastic piece, and sticking the card underneath?

[surfimp]

Wow, these are fantastic! Great job.

My suggestion would be to keep the maneuver deck of the Thorn, but make the "no go" red zone smaller (maybe *just* the bow edge?) to reflect the better windward performance of a fore-and-aft rigged ship, and bring the green back so that the ship will still be solidly in the green on a beam reach. Otherwise the orange as reflected above for the Enterprise seems pretty spot-on.

I'm very impressed and so tempted to try my own!

[Bligh]

Check this thread out gentlemen.

http://sailsofglory.org/showthread.php?4074-Going-baseless&p=61459#post61459

Rob.

[Comte de Brueys]

...all those shreddered sloops. :shock:

[TexaS]

I'm with you on that, Sven.

I also think schooners would be a little smaller if nitpicking. I think the HMSchooner Pickle would be about two centimeters. It's ridiculously small.

It's still very good conversions and I wish I had them in my fleet. :envy::wink:

[TexaS]

By the way... I'm thinking that clippers would be better at a "hard over" than the ship sloop and could therefore have veer 9.

Any thoughts on this?

[Bligh]

Is this more what you had in mind Gents.



22846
Rob.

[surfimp]

I'm with you on that, Sven.

I also think schooners would be a little smaller if nitpicking. I think the HMSchooner Pickle would be about two centimeters. It's ridiculously small.

It's still very good conversions and I wish I had them in my fleet. :envy::wink:

Many of the Baltimore Clipper / revenue cutter/ privateer schooners from this era were in the 90-120' range if I'm not mistaken, so I think using the Thorn (which was 90' long if I'm not mistaken) as the basis for conversion is fine.

I ordered an extra Thorn and am going to give this conversion a go. Can't wait!

[surfimp]

Is this more what you had in mind Gents.

22846
Rob.

I think the red zone is probably pretty close but the orange and green should be reversed... the fore-and-aft rigged ships are pretty fast on a close reach, at their fastest point of sail on a beam reach, a bit slower on a broad reach and absolute dogs when running dead downwind. As I understand it, the square rigged topsail of a topsail schooner was added specifically to try and address the absolute dogginess of sailing downwind.

I liked Dobbs' approach but I almost think something with two orange zones, in addition to his "Sail setting -1" at dead downwind idea, would be good.

Here's a very rough approximation of the idea:

http://i.imgur.com/jH4kc3a.png

[Bligh]

Right I'll work on that basis with the extra veer of 9 if you think Jonas has that correct gentlemen.
Rob.

[Dobbs]

Hi Steve, I couldn't see your attachment, but I'd like to. This is a completely new field for the game and I'd like to see other interpretations.

One other thing I've done to reflect sloop agility is allow them to plot the current turn, whereas bigger ships have to plot a turn ahead.

[surfimp]

Hi Steve, I couldn't see your attachment, but I'd like to. This is a completely new field for the game and I'd like to see other interpretations.

Not sure what happened, but I quickly re-made the card using your Enterprise as the base.

My understanding is that a schooner (or any multi-mast rig) can't sail quite as close to the wind as a sloop, and is slow on the dead run, but is optimized for maximum speed on a beam reach.

Ergo something like this, that would of course have to be tweaked to match up with the actual model being used, and how it (and its masts) sat on the base.

http://i.imgur.com/jH4kc3a.png

[Dobbs]

My understanding is that a schooner (or any multi-mast rig) can't sail quite as close to the wind as a sloop, and is slow on the dead run, but is optimized for maximum speed on a beam reach.

Steve, Bear in mind that while Swan class sloops of war are called sloops, they are actually ship-rigged sloops (sloop being just the navy's way of classifying them as an unrated vessel), and a schooner could definitely outsail a ship-rigged sloop to windward.

I have been pondering how the card might change based on the schooner's mast, but on my schooner, the mainmast only a mm or so aft of the Thorn's original location. I suppose that means that even using the original unmodified Thorn card she'd be able to sail closer to the wind...

I think I'm going to go back on my choice of the C deck and stick with the G deck.

[Bligh]

In that case I will hold back on any further modifications to my cards, and wait until your debate reaches some final conclusions. This is all most illuminating and far more complex than anything with which I could have come up.
Rob.

[Clipper1701]

In that case I will hold back on any further modifications to my cards, and wait until your debate reaches some final conclusions. This is all most illuminating and far more complex than anything with which I could have come up.
Rob.

Me too matey! I will wait till the pros who knows sort out the details, meanwhile I am deep into rigging and reading the history of the bigger Clipper Ships, fascinating! Beginning to understand the impact of steam for good and bad . . . still hope to do a windjammer cruise someday . . . drawn to the sea by wind and sail . . .ahhhhhh

[Bligh]

As soon as they decide Dave, I will knock out a set for all four of your ships.
Rob.

[surfimp]

Steve, Bear in mind that while Swan class sloops of war are called sloops, they are actually ship-rigged sloops (sloop being just the navy's way of classifying them as an unrated vessel), and a schooner could definitely outsail a ship-rigged sloop to windward.
I understand this (and understood it well, before your reply) but am not sure what I am to take from it?


I have been pondering how the card might change based on the schooner's mast, but on my schooner, the mainmast only a mm or so aft of the Thorn's original location. I suppose that means that even using the original unmodified Thorn card she'd be able to sail closer to the wind...

Sure, with an unmodified Thorn card, she'd sail closer to the wind, but she'd be in orange...

The goal of my effort was to significantly extend the green into close reach range, while still keeping some orange in the closehauled range just before irons. That change would tremendously increase the schooner's windward performance vs that of the Thorn's original... it would go much faster, much closer to the wind, as it'd be in the "green zone" in a wide arc around beam reach.

The reasoning for having a bit of orange between green and red was because, as I understand it, the closehauled tack is one of the slower points of sail, with the greatest amount of leeway induced. So it didn't seem reasonable to go from green directly to red without some intermediate orange at the extreme closehauled angle.

I also didn't change the red zone from your original Enterprise card, although in my original conception the red would be the extent of the bow end of the card and not extend down the sides at all. However, while I think that close angle would possibly be acceptable for a true sloop, for a multimasted ship like a schooner, ketch or yawl, my understanding is that they are incapable of sailing quite as close to the wind as a single masted sloop-rigged ship/boat.

I don't have first-hand experience but if that is the case, it might be an argument that either the Thorn's original irons range is not wide enough, and/or that it would be appropriate, within game terms, to provide a very narrow red zone for a schooner because, relative to the ship-rigged vessels, it would be able to sail that much close to the wind.

I suspect that the Thorn's red zone is too small, and that it should be bigger, but in any event it is an official product so we have to work from there. And so, I have updated the card (below) with the narrow red zone I originally considered but did not include in my first pass, for the reasons stated above.

I'm not sure I understand how my card displeased you, or if you were actually displeased at all. I kind of read it that way, but I'm certainly not looking for a fight, and I prefaced my effort by noting that it was extremely rough and just a brainstorm.

In any event, I was just trying to come up with something that matches my real-world experience as a (novice) sailor (entirely in sloops, and not sloops-of-war :p ) as well as aligning in a generalized sense with what I've read of schooner performance at various points of sail.

Here's a revised version. I've narrowed the red zone at the bow and also increased the purple zone (where, per your idea, Dobbs, you'd play your current sail setting -1)

http://i.imgur.com/NyFKqdF.png

[Bligh]

I am still interested in this debate chaps. it is all very enlightening on points of sailing.
Rob.

[surfimp]

I am still interested in this debate chaps. it is all very enlightening on points of sailing.

With all due respect - "debate" makes it sound much more contentious than I feel comfortable with. I believe we are simply trying to introduce mechanics for fore-and-aft rigged ships that do not currently exist in the game, and we have the best of intentions in doing so. Any of these things would need to be tested and really, discussing card artwork without the ship model (and its main mast position) represented is really the most broad and vague of first efforts. We're feeling about in the dark for something that seems right, but play testing and a consistent model would be mandatory for making anything like a defined card for these vessels.

For that matter, I am very much a novice and have much to learn about sailing. I have been fortunate to have once sailed aboard the replica of the America down in San Diego, and raised her sails, and spoken a bit with her crew, but that is as much as I have personally experienced in terms of schooners. She was quite fast on a beam reach, for what it's worth, but really I'm at best guessing as to what would be appropriate.

Summary: it's a discussion amongst peers, not a debate :)

[Clipper1701]

It is and should be all in fun : ) thanks for all the thoughts and ideas. In my world a debate is a spirited educational experience where all parties serve the topic with their best efforts to enlighten all parties. From this thread I have enjoyed all your ideas and interest and passion, thanks!

[Clipper1701]

As soon as they decide Dave, I will knock out a set for all four of your ships.
Rob.

Thanks so much! My graphic days are pre-digital. My Adobe Illustrator is still in the box : )

[surfimp]

Here's something kind of fun that demonstrates the influence of sail setting and relative wind direction on the speed of a typical fore-and-aft rigged boat: http://www.thepirateking.com/ships/sail_simulator.htm

I am certain it's not super accurate but it gives a reasonable approximation of how fore-and-aft rigged boats perform. Quite different than square riggers, which are optimized for broad reaches if I'm not mistaken.

[Clipper1701]

So in my search of all things sailing, I saw this crazy "tiny" sailboat at the marina on Lake Pleasant, AZ. With a moment on Google I discovered the mini 12 class of sail boats! Too cool!

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1680&bih=913&q=mini+sailboat&oq=mini+sail&gs_l=img.1.0.0l7j0i30l3.299.3153.0.7067.5.5.0.0.0.0.412.719.3-1j1.2.0....0...1ac.1.64.img..3.2.718.knO-fLQBr6Q#hl=en&tbm=isch&q=mini+12+sailboat

No clippers or square riggers!

[Bligh]

I am sorry if my use of semantics has disturbed you Steve. I was using the word as defined in the Cambridge English Dictionary."debate meaning, definition, what is debate: (a) serious discussion of a subject in which many people take part."
I in no way intended to upset anyone, nor suggest that this was in any way a less than harmonious discussion. Simply that it was serious to me as a way of gleaning information about a n area of seamanship about which I am sadly ignorant. However little experience you may have on schooners, it is 100% more than my own.
I hope that I have not put you off continuing to help me get a better understanding of how to handle one of these vessels, albeit a small plastic one.
Rob.

[Bligh]

Just had a trial run with your simulator program Steve, and I found it very informative.
I will be revisiting periodically I'm sure.
Rob.

[Dobbs]

I have been pondering Steve's base card. I can agree with the logic of the split orange zone, as the closer to the wind the ship sails, the less efficient it gets. However, I think the schooner would still be a better performer than the ship rigged sloop, so I think I am going to stick with green all the way to red, at least at first. It's a tough call and subject to change with play testing.

[surfimp]

I'm going to have a go with it, too, Dobbs. It would be great fun to accommodate these ships in the game! I'm such a schooner fanboy I can barely stand it.

I'll look forward to reading about what you come up with!

As we do in Naval Action: o7

It's an emoticon of someone delivering a salute :)

[Clipper1701]

So I will pursue the base cards and give them a try as well. Are there other, larger armed such ships I might build in this medium? I love the process and the ships are a blast to make, too bad the Bigger Clipper ships are so much later than our game . . . I too love the schooner look!

[Clipper1701]

I'm going to have a go with it, too, Dobbs. It would be great fun to accommodate these ships in the game! I'm such a schooner fanboy I can barely stand it.

I'll look forward to reading about what you come up with!

As we do in Naval Action: o7

It's an emoticon of someone delivering a salute :)

Hey Steve, what is the ship in your avatar?

[Bligh]

Nearly ready to start my conversion.
As of yesterday and a cruise by my local Model shop, I now have Carbon fiber for the masts and thin plasticard for the sails.
Rob.

[Clipper1701]

I have a number of CF rods from my R/C projects, hadn't thought about using them up on ships . . . more clippers then? Good luck on yours, mine are taking up residence on the mantle for a while . . .

[Dobbs]

My schooner's masts are carbon fiber, and I have been replacing a number of the sprit sails on the minis with a carbon fiber rod since by this time period, the spar was being used primarily to provide a range of sheeting angles for the headsails, not carry a sail. I have left the spritsails on the 74's. They'll get a dolphin striker added, but everyone else is getting a bare spar and a dolphin striker.

I've been looking for really fine c/f for a rigging alternative to the paint brush method. I plan to use the smallest I have now for the mainstays on the 1st rates, but it's too heavy for regular standing rigging.

[Bligh]

I got the idea for CF from you Dobbs, so can't claim any brownie points for that.
I'm sure that its use elsewhere as you suggest will certainly firm things up a lot.
Rob.

[Herkybird]

mine are taking up residence on the mantle for a while . . .

Yikes! I hope this is another difference between American and UK English? I assume you have you models on what we call a mantelpiece, rather than on the molten layer beneath the Earth's crust! :wink:

[Bligh]

Or in my case on the Gas Lamp. Which by sheer coincidence is also on the Mantelpiece.:wink:
Bligh.

[Naharaht]

Those are good looking ships, David. :thumbsup: I am interested in the discussion about the card because I have a Shapeways xebec model, which is rigged fore and aft.

[Clipper1701]

Yikes! I hope this is another difference between American and UK English? I assume you have you models on what we call a mantelpiece, rather than on the molten layer beneath the Earth's crust! :wink:

Ah yes, living in this part of Arizona often seems to be like living near the molten layer . . . 102F degrees here today-mantlepiece it is. : )

[Clipper1701]

Those are good looking ships, David. :thumbsup: I am interested in the discussion about the card because I have a Shapeways xebec model, which is rigged fore and aft.

Indeed, I have one as well, they seem quite tiny next to the game ships, my Shapeways HMS Surprise does as well.

[Bligh]

Indeed, I have one as well, they seem quite tiny next to the game ships, my Shapeways HMS Surprise does as well.

That's why it's named Surprise Dave. After reading the books, it's always a surprise to find that it is as small as it is!
Rob.

[surfimp]

Speaking of Shapeways, wouldn't it be great to simply come up with some size-appropriate 3D printed masts & sails for this schooner conversion?

Or for that matter, wouldn't it be lovely if some kind soul would make a properly scaled 1:1000 scale schooner model with an appropriately-placed peg? ;-)

If I was better at 3D modeling, I'd give it a go.

Dave, the schooner in my avatar is a painting by William G. Yorke of the racing yacht Columbia, which itself was based on the Gloucester fishing schooner pattern vis-a-vis Captains Courageous.

[Bligh]

Indeed after the thread on the early clipper conversion my elves ran amuck!


Sorry these took so long to do Clipper.
I hope they are what you were after.

26037

26038

26039

26040

Rob.

[Clipper1701]

Yes! Thanks!

[Bligh]

Great.
I had lost the file so had to look at what the shipmates had done here and make a best guess.
Rob.

[Bligh]

https://www.sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=48286&d=1583574954



Back to this thread.
Did anyone ever come up with a ship log for Enterprise?

If not do you have any suggestions shipmates?

Rob.

[Volunteer]

Well Mr. Thread Necromancer, I don't have anything for Enterprise, but I am certainly happy you resurrected this thread! I am sincerely sorry I entirely missed this one. Must have been during my inactive period. I love the work sequence Clipper posted! This is the inspirational stuff that gets my creative juices flowing. Awesome stuff! Makes me wonder what else I missed?

[Bligh]

Glad it brought joy into your life Vol.
I will continue to trawl through the archives in the hope that something else on this subject may turn up.
Rob.