USS Constitution Sister ships

[Clipper1701]

Pardon me if this has been explored here before, but I am drifting a bit lately. As I finished rigging my Constitution I began wondering what sisters she may have out there to make a repaint of from a spare or two or three. From Wiki-the most reliable of sources I discover she was sister to: USS United States and the USS President. Were there any visible differences to them? I would hate to have a repaint be simply a change of Logs . . .

[Diamondback]

Some minor variance in paint scheme at times (quick and easy, overpaint the white with a buff color), and also in armament. Little to nothing structural.

Also: USS Guerriere and USS Java of 1814 were an improved version of the same basic design, and the design's alleged ancestor 1778 French L'Indien/1780 SCS South Carolina. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indien_(1778) (The Humphreys ships are similar beam but about a meter longer with an additional pair on the main gun deck.)

[Clipper1701]

Thanks! A little easier than planes : )

[Diamondback]

Slap a Royal Navy flag on it and Constitution might also pass for HMS Newcastle, one of the Brits' first "superfrigates" built to counter the Humphreys threat.

[David Manley]

Slap a white ensign on her and she also makes an ideal HMS President

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-E1BUV3aZpYQ/Vf8rQyt7SiI/AAAAAAAABoI/i2ZR2i6rbyU/s1600/2015-09-20%2B09.33.29.jpg

[Diamondback]

David, figured the President reflag was a skosh obvious. :) Sent you and the Ares crew a note requesting review at your convenience of the draughts between President and Newcastle as a prospective "Side B Stretch" to make the Humphreys superfrigates a viable main-line addition.

Still looking for a couple RN and other stretches to try to make the Peacock group viable...

[David Manley]

It is obvious if you know, not if you don't :happy:

Email on Newcastle sent.....

[Bligh]

Good.
I was wondering what to do with my other Constitution.
Rob.

[Northern Wolves]

I have a 2nd Constitution sitting and looking at me as well, she will likely be the United States and I haven't decided how I will attempt the stern modifications as there is scant detail on how that looked in the War of 1812.

The President was 'the acknowledged smaller of the three big frigates' according to James and to Roosevelt, probably the one thing they agreed on haha, but no one ever details in what way. Other sources have alluded to a few inches of hull thickness is all this amounts to, though James and the Naval Register give her slightly less tonnage, it's all confusing. All it would take is 8 to 12 inches less beam or length to changer her tonnage by a hundred or more, though the President was still massive for a frigate even if she was slightly smaller and the British upon inspecting her considered her 'overbuilt'.

I know that her main mast sat 3 feet aft of what the Constitution and United States did at their launch, but I believe those two had theirs also shifted during an early refit, so no need to move the mast really.

I just remembered a passage from James where he discusses the President after her capture and inspection, he lists her as 1533 tons, which is 43 tons smaller than her two sisters, inconsequential really and as we see here here scantling remains well and truly 'overbuilt'.

She was undoubtedly faster than the other two though, the US captains frequently mentioned that.

And now I've almost talked myself into making her the President. Who am I kidding, I will likely make them both after I finish my Essex conversion.

Some interesting info for fellow scantling or American frigate enthusiasts. These are from James and the Naval Register

I don't know how to add the spoiler tags here to condense this, apologies

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24481

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[Bligh]

Very interesting Mike.
Thanks for the information.
Rob.

[SWO_Daddy]

Got a second Constitution...seriously considering a USS United States or HMS President "skin". I really wish Ares would re-release this sculpt as set 3 (2 American, 1 British).

[Diamondback]

Jeremy, not in 3 or 4, but we've been discussing it as an idea for Wave 5 or later. The problem is coming up with six names and two on a matching flag for the third SKU... hence the discussion of similar concept British one-offs Leander and Newcastle above.

About the only similar 24-pdr before the end of the Napoleonic Wars is the French pair of Fortes, both taken by RN (President left, Egyptienne right)
25675 25676
Forte is smaller enough and different enough that I would be *very* uncomfortable faking them with a Constitution, though they are another "one or two shy of a six-pack".

[David Manley]

The problem is coming up with six names and two on a matching flag for the third SKU

First World problems.....

Its only a problem if we wish to make it so.

There is no hard and fast rule that says Ares MUST have two names for each model, or that there have to be three incarnations of a release. It would be quite acceptable to have an HMS President card single sided.

[Diamondback]

David, selling an idea to the crowd here is one thing--getting it past Rob and the Ares crowd quite another. :) I'm fine with a blank, I'm fine with slipstreaming Newcastle if that's the only way we'll ever see her--just that the closer we tack to "what they want to see," the better the chance of them adopting *our* work rather than going off on a wild hair and coming up with something like the Mixmaster First Rates or the Actionnaire Debacle or their over-eagerness to do ships purchased into the RN but never rearmed and refitted for sea service.

[Bligh]

I think that this has to be a matter of compromise as DB says Dave. As we saw with Wings when you give a free vote on the next models everyone wants something different and there is never a consensus powerful enough to swing it. We must tread carefully and go with the flow just steering the current our way if we can.
Rob.

[David Manley]

I agree, but it is inevitable that the Connie model is going to make a comeback as further examples of the US 44 since doing otherwise seriously short changes the US side of anger developing range and hence continues the annoyance of players wishing to cover off the USA. From a marketing perspective not bringing it back would be more than a bit daft

[AirborneEnginee]

First World problems.....

Its only a problem if we wish to make it so.

There is no hard and fast rule that says Ares MUST have two names for each model, or that there have to be three incarnations of a release. It would be quite acceptable to have an HMS President card single sided.

Creating 3 SKUs should not be a concern as they already have one SKU for the Constitution. If necessary, add the HMS President as a third card to one of the packs. If you want to use it, swap the flag.

The molds and all of the tools and techniques needed to make this class of vessel have already been created. Can't imagine why it is taking so long to do reissues of other vessels.

[Diamondback]

First off, we actually already have five candidates as noted above... I'm pretty sure that they'll want to do a mainline superfrigate as a downgraded-detail version so they can keep a premium price on Constitution. (Which if I were them I'd re-release at the same time.)
--President
--United States
--USS Guerriere
--USS Java
--HMS President

Some breakdown here is obvious. Make one side of each on the A & B packs an original, the other an 1814-launched "improved model". HMS President is C, whatever the backside ends up. Constitution SP still sells at a higher margin to generate badly-needed revenues and profits for this underfunded little company trying to deliver big-company product.

That right there is the root of most of Ares' problems, the lack of capitalization and cash-flow.

Besides, do we really WANT them rushing through things like they did that got us all the problems with First Run Wave 2? I'd rather they take their time, get it right, re-release Wave 1 and maybe lightly rework Wave 2 and SGN201's sculpts to hold us while Wave 4 and 5 are being prepared...

[Capn Duff]

I must admit to being in the camp of Ares getting the sculpts correct. Although I am going to have to live with the First Rate / Victory issue. i have already got two of each of the British first rates one for each side of the ship card and the availability and cost of getting a number of Victories to replace it too much.
Although I personally am not too fussed about the usn ships at this time, I would not mind adding HMS President to the collection, was already thinking of reflag my current USS Constitution but will wait if it likely to get a genuine one. But for me sculpt accuracy is important. Just my 2d for what its worth :)

[Bligh]

I agree Chris, if they make it I'll buy it probably both sides of the card. If it ain't quite right I will do a bit of micro surgery if at all possible. HMS President would be another fine addition to the Fleet.
Rob.

[Diamondback]

Chris and Rob, the idea I was considering suggesting to Rob at Ares was finding somebody on Shapeways and licensing an "Official Game Accessory Hull Correction Set" for those who want it right, assuming that 1. SLP'ing a decent threedecker is even possible and 2. somebody's up for the job.

[Bligh]

Supposing you got the O.K. from Ares DB. I wonder if any of the chaps who do aircraft on the Wings site would be up for it?
Rob.

[Capn Duff]

I believe there are two sculpters on Shapeways already, one is already in this forum and made some Great Lakes vessels, a second has made a Xebec on 1/1000 as well as HMS Surprize from the Pirates movie franchise, so there are people about but we would need the requisite permissions.

[Capn Duff]

Had a quick look and the member who sculpts is Gina or Broadsword56

On Shapeways there is the Artificery who makes a 1/1000 Xebec, plus another called Kaja models who has sculpted some sailing ships for steampunk I believe.
So there may be a facility to be explored.

[Diamondback]

Don't even really need the license since Ares can't trademark an entire scale... just a designer with will and skill. (Though an official license would send a very desirable "looking out for our customers" message...)

I am thinking about suggesting a line of spare masts for Just In Case, though... if we can get official Ares masts those look better than what's on Shapeways IMHO.

[Tomrcast]

It was my understanding there were some deck/hull differences with USS United States. I'm trying to recall what they were.

[Dobbs]

It was my understanding there were some deck/hull differences with USS United States. I'm trying to recall what they were.

She had some sort of "house" built on her aft deck, which many thought impacted her sailing qualities negatively, earning her the nickname "Old Wagon". I have never seen any pictures, but imagine it was something like what John P Jones did with BHR.

[Diamondback]

Dobbs, BHR wasn't really that radically altered--no new deckhouses, just the existing quarterdeck's forward bulkhead moved forward around ten feet or so IIRC and then building new bulwarks for the gunners to take cover behind on the weather deck.

Here's a pic of United States with the roundhouse, which probably came off ca. 1806: https://ussconstitutionmuseum.org/2016/06/14/federal-frigate-early-views-united-states/

[Tomrcast]

Thanks. I knew there was something.

[Diamondback]

Not enough to build from... and it came off before the bulk of her combat career, so the existing model is generally a better representation of United States in-battle.