Constitution too Powerful?

[Dobbs]

I have been thinking about adjusting the Constitution's abilities to be less like a 74 and more like a frigate. Has anyone else thought about this? I noticed that, according to her stats, in 1812 she was comparable in strength to the HMS Zealous. When other ship strengths fluctuate because of a difference of a few guns within their class, representing her as a 74 seems off.

[Diamondback]

Operationally in 1812 (for that matter most of her combat career) she was loaded with closer to 60 guns than 44--I would say the punch of a 60-gun small SOL is reasonable, but she shouldn't be able to stand in a toe-to-toe slugfest with a 74 for very long.

The best way to think of her is like an 1800s version of Hood, Scharnhorst or Gneisenau--battleship punch with cruiser maneuverability and speed, at the cost of cruiser hull strength and battleship target-size.

[Coog]

I wouldn't change her stats too fast. One big problem that SOG has is that it lumps Revolutionary period ships with just long guns in with Napoleonic period ships armed with large carronades. The 1812 USS Constitution with 32-pound carronades on a spar deck throws more weight than a older ship like HMS Zealous armed with just 9-pound long guns on her quarterdeck and forecastle. If you could compare USS Constitution with an 1812 74 SOL, like HMS Poictiers, with 32-pound carronades along with some long guns on her quarterdeck and forecastle, you would see a better representation of the difference between a heavy frigate and SOL of the period.

Of course HMS Zealous should have an advantage over USS Constitution in a long range duel, but as we have previously discussed at length, SOG poorly represents carronades with their short range and there is no easy fix for the problem.

[Diamondback]

And as noted elsewhere, the problems with carronades were not the guns or projectiles but rather that bore technology exceeded the ability of "economical" sighting technology to keep up at that point. It would have been simple to mount a sight rib along the top of the gun, but at the time the Admiralties of the world were frequently too firmly in the "Cheap, Stupid Bastards" class to even pay for sufficient TRAINING AMMO, and very few officers were up for paying for upgrades out-of-pocket, especially equipment they couldn't take with them to their next command.

[Dobbs]

I have to admit that I don't own one yet,but looking at the spreadsheet I downloaded from here, the Constitution has the same Burden and the same number of damage boxes as a Slade's 74, but is probably more maneuverable. In reality, I think it unlikely that Constitution could have defeated a 64 in a line of battle, but I'm thinking when 4th rates come out their stats will have to be weaker than Constitution. Has anyone fought Constitution against a Slade's? Crew and captain skills should not figure into the ship's stats, as they are optional. As to carronades, by that time pretty much everyone was carrying some. Constitution was not an exceptional "rule beater" with all carronades, so her armament should be reflected in the B range.

[David Manley]

The best way to think of her is like an 1800s version of Hood, Scharnhorst or Gneisenau--battleship punch with cruiser maneuverability and speed, at the cost of cruiser hull strength and battleship target-size.

More like an 1800s version of Graf Spee, IMHO. The combination of 11" guns on a heavy cruiser hull fits the analogy much better. The other three were battleships through and through, albeit with weak main armament in 2 cases.

[David Manley]

Constitution suffers from "Bismarck Syndrome" for obvious reasons.

[Dobbs]

Constitution suffers from "Bismarck Syndrome" for obvious reasons.

I agree with David, and think it would make for a more interesting ship if she better reflected her historic capabilities in the game. I am wondering if anyone else has thought along these lines and doctored her stats.

I can see an argument for her Burden of 5. She was a big girl in her time. I am pondering a reduction in her firepower (especially her 1812 configuration). One thing I am definitely angling toward is one box less of damage, putting her in line with the rest of the frigates (to say that sure, she's big, but still couldn't hang with a line of battle ship).

[Herkybird]

I am tempted to just accept Constitution as is, after all, the fledgling American navy hasn't got a lot of variety, having Constitution as a sort of Faux 74 makes her an 'Interesting' match!
I disagree with a lot of stats for Sails vessels, but like in Wings, I accept them as they provide unique challenges for gaming, and they are 'sort' of like the real unit they represent.

That is what I think anyway! :takecover:

[David Manley]

As long as one remembers it's just a game that's fine, and is nice to have a death star / bogey man in the game :)

I just wish the stat range had been wide enough to allow a decent representation of the diverse range of 5th, 6th and unrated ships properly.

[Dobbs]

All in all, I think Ares did a really good job with SoG. My wife and I work on sailboats for a living and find that the maneuver card system really captures the feel of sailing. And the fact that you can blow up your friend's boats while sailing is just a bonus!

[Coog]

I am wondering what the firepower numbers for Constitution's sisters United States and President will look like if Ares does a repaint for them as they had 42-pound carronades instead of 32-pound carronades. I had read in one source that the change in size did not make that much of a difference in combat. But in game terms 100 pounds more in a broadside could make a difference if a certain formula is used in calculations.

[KDz]

Just waiting for my copy of Contitusion. I have't seen before statistics of this ship and I hope that is not so strong, and other frigates will be able to establish an equal fight.

[Herkybird]

I used the Constitution today, and have a report on my blog! - it should tell you all you need to know! http://herkybird-richardbradley.blogspot.co.uk/2016/04/good-for-constitution.html

22360

[Nightmoss]

I went back and looked at the AAR I posted from the USS Constitution vs. HMS Sybille (HMS Guerriere) solo battle. I sailed the Sybille and the AI controlled the Constitution. Without special rules or captain's abilities in play the game was pretty close all things considered. Some bad chit draws hurt the Sybille/Guerriere and that can make all the difference. It is a game after all and with house rules and the ability to tweak stuff as needed you can do a lot with Sails of Glory.

http://sailsofglory.org/showthread.php?3402-USS-Constitution-vs-HMS-Guerriere-AAR&highlight=constitution+guerriere

[KDz]

:minis:
I used the Constitution today, and have a report on my blog! - it should tell you all you need to know! http://herkybird-richardbradley.blogspot.co.uk/2016/04/good-for-constitution.html

22360

Fantastic battle Richard, Contitusion looks great. Can't wait for shipment now :wink:

[KDz]

I went back and looked at the AAR I posted from the USS Constitution vs. HMS Sybille (HMS Guerriere) solo battle. I sailed the Sybille and the AI controlled the Constitution. Without special rules or captain's abilities in play the game was pretty close all things considered. Some bad chit draws hurt the Sybille/Guerriere and that can make all the difference. It is a game after all and with house rules and the ability to tweak stuff as needed you can do a lot with Sails of Glory.

http://sailsofglory.org/showthread.php?3402-USS-Constitution-vs-HMS-Guerriere-AAR&highlight=constitution+guerriere

This is great to, not seen it before. Tenx Jim :thumbsup:

[TWR]

I read the Wikipedia description of HMS Guerrière. It stated after its capture by the British:

"Blanche escorted Guerrière back to Britain, arriving with her prize on 26 July in Yarmouth Roads. Guerrière was commissioned into the Royal Navy, after a repair and refit which brought her to 48 guns."

This is however different to the Wikipedia article on the engagement between Constitution and HMS Guerrière which lists HMS Guerrière as having 38 guns.

[Diamondback]

There is a highly technical term for researching Guerriere: "Mind-Boggling Pain In The Arse."

So much conflicting info from so many sources each of whom interpret things in their own ways...

[Coog]

Although rated as a 38-gun frigate, Guerrière was armed with 49 guns at the time of the battle as follows:

16 × 32-pounder carronades
30 × 18-pounder long guns
2 × 12-pounder long guns
1 × 18-pounder carronade


For comparison, HMS Sybille had was typically armed as follows:

12 x 32-pound carronades
28 x 18-pounders
4 x 9-pounders

[Herkybird]

Although rated as a 38-gun frigate, Guerrière was armed with 49 guns at the time of the battle as follows:

16 × 32-pounder carronades
30 × 18-pounder long guns
2 × 12-pounder long guns
1 × 18-pounder carronade


For comparison, HMS Sybille had was typically armed as follows:

12 x 32-pound carronades
28 x 18-pounders
4 x 9-pounders

I am sure though, the Admiralties of Britain and France used to compare gun numbers and sizes, without factoring in the room on the gun decks. I found on my visit to HMS Trincomalee recently that French vessels typically had less room to service their guns, which would impact on the rates of fire and possibly accuracy. I presume this would impact on French vessels taken into RN service? :question:

[Diamondback]

Most French captures were significantly de-rated in RN service IIRC.

[TexaS]

French 40s becoming 38s...

I find that USS Constitution is very strong both as a good sailer and as having a strong broadside. I have mostly used her older stats as HMS Indefatigable. I'd probably make Indy sail a little better and have a slightly less powerful broadside, but using official stats feels better even though not perfect for the ship. I have then found even the old version very powerful.

[csadn]

Not to mention differences in ammo casting -- IIRC, US ammo was always a pound or two light; while British ammo was a pound or two heavy....

[David Manley]

Actually the "quality control" was pretty good. It had to be else the cannon balls (being of a pretty constant density) wouldn't fit the bore of the cannon. "Windage" (the difference in diameter of the ball to that of the cannon bore) was fairly tight - 20:21 until the 1790s using the Borgard standard, I think this was tightened to 34:35 around about the turn of the century.

Where there was a difference was in the definition of a pound, but I think that was more a difference between British and Continental systems of weights and I can't remember exactly what the differences were.

[Dobbs]

I thought historically that the Constitution was originally considered a bit of a "dog" sailing-wise, but later captains figured out how to trim her better. I didn't realize that there was a significant change in her armaments between her commissioning and the War of 1812. Perhaps instead of changing her arsenal, what about a different (slower) maneuver deck for the earlier Constitution?

[TWR]

I thought historically that the Constitution was originally considered a bit of a "dog" sailing-wise, but later captains figured out how to trim her better...

I often think I don't spend enough time sailing a vessel prior to taking it into action. I'm sure learning to understand the characteristics of a ship would help considerably during a game.

[TexaS]

Only through Battle can you fully understand a ship's capabilities.

Or to quote Flanders & Swan:

And all the world over each nation's the same
They've simply no notion of playing the game
They argue with umpires, they cheer when they've won
And they practice before hand which spoils all the fun

[Dobbs]

I have noticed a dramatic decrease in collisions and an increase in game length as my friends and I learn to maneuver. Just the other day, we had two Temeraires hunting the Royal Sovereign, and I thought how artistic it looked as both sides jockeyed for tactical advantage.

[Bligh]

Only through Battle can you fully understand a ship's capabilities.

Or to quote Flanders & Swan:

And all the world over each nation's the same
They've simply no notion of playing the game
They argue with umpires, they cheer when they've won
And they practice before hand which spoils all the fun

Well Jonas!
I have not heard that since a friend of mine had the temerity to sing the whole song in a Scottish pub full of their Rugby players. He did, however, have the backup of a couple of dozen fully armoured Pikemen with him at the time, plus my musketeers. Still it looked nasty for a few moments.
Rob.

[TexaS]

:happy::clap:

[Dobbs]

I will be curious to see how the Portlands or Artesiens compare to the Constitution, since they are two deckers with more guns, but only have a burden of 4? I mean, technology marches on, but?

[Dobbs]

I don't have anything against the Constitution, she was big and mighty,, but she was a big and mighty frigate. In a well played match, I think she could take out a Slade's Common.

[Dobbs]

(That's on my to-do list)

[Diamondback]

I'd venture Portland roughly comparable albeit lighter punch, Artesien about midway between Constitution and a 74. Ares's math isn't as straightforward as Wings... :( Take that guess with a grain of salt, I find out the final game stats the same time as you do--all I really get to see early is the names and paint maps.

[Dobbs]

I did notice that Constitution outweighs a Portland, so Burden 5 against the Burden 4 might be reasonable. It bugs me that all of the frigates have 8 damage boxes. but the Constitution has 9, like the 3rd rates (oh, and the larger burden, too). I picture the number of damage boxes as the lasting power, independent of ship size (burden), and a ship of the line (1st to 3rd rate) should have more. Maybe even 4th rates should get the 9th box, because they could almost stand in the line, but not frigates, even big ones.

[Herkybird]

I totally agree! Constitution is like a 74 on steroids. I think a slight reduction in fighting power would still make it a superb fighting ship.

[Bligh]

I must say that I agree with you chaps. Outgunning another frigate is acceptable, but I was amazed when mine took out a 74, with only about half of its own boxes filled.
Rob.

[Dobbs]

My first Constitution house rule will be to reduce her to 8 damage boxes. I'm thinking the 4th box goes.

I'm also thinking of reducing her 1812 1st box to 4-5-4. My thought is the stronger ends represent the switch from 12 pdrs to carronades, without adopting the new carronade rules.

[Diamondback]

Those tables in the other Constitution thread were also for "new" Leander, Britain's first superfrigate, not the old Portland, it should be noted--along with contemporary British commentary saying "four feet more beam and President would be the tonnage equal of a standard 74".

Then again, part of the problem is the lack of transparency in game math, and trying to cram things too close together.

[Bligh]

My first Constitution house rule will be to reduce her to 8 damage boxes. I'm thinking the 4th box goes.

I'm also thinking of reducing her 1812 1st box to 4-5-4. My thought is the stronger ends represent the switch from 12 pdrs to carronades, without adopting the new carronade rules.

I have just looked at my HEIC Nottingham conversion from Constitution, and decided that the 4th gunnery box has to go. When compared to HMS Amelia and the French 38s she seems too much like a 50 than a 44.
Rob.

[Diamondback]

Rob, for your Nottingham that may be prudent, but it is worth noting that the Humphreys "44s" were usually only 44's on paper, their real armament being more like a 58. Understating the gun power may have helped sell them to the hemp-smoking hippie peaceniks of the day in Congress...

[Bligh]

Thanks DB.
I will act upon your wise guidance as usual.
Rob.

[David Manley]

FWIW I would agree with the deletion of the 4th box.

[Diamondback]

FWIW I would agree with the deletion of the 4th box.
Just for clarity: Constitution, Rob's ship or both?

I'm starting to think we might be better off on the Stats Committee to develop our own alternative "Expert Rules" stat system than to try to slot things into the dog's-breakfast of Ares' current no-visible-logic system.

[David Manley]

Both

And yes, you are probably right. That or a revised stat system completely. TBH I did start down that route but I don't have the timeto see it through

[Bligh]

Just to add a bit of interest to the debate Sascha has just posted this from Essen on the Wings Forum.
It is the first real chance I have had at the stats for the new ships.


25904

Rob.

[Herkybird]

Whoo, those are seriously good ships IMHO! :takecover:

[Diamondback]

So Bahama rates right in line with a Common 74. Appropriate, she was rather small... most of the Spanish 74's would be more the Middling or Large weight-class. (French Temeraires were usually considered Middlings as they were usually refitted with an 18pdr UD, but the standard 24pdr design armament would make them Larges as-taken.)

[Capn Duff]

Ohh I am so looking forward to adding these to my fleets

[Diamondback]

TBH I did start down that route but I don't have the timeto see it through
That's why we have a Stats Committee, team efforts on things like that. Maybe if you post what you had started we can help. :) (I'm not going to lie, I might find something useful to help with my Campaign Rules I'm working on too--in which case, coauthor cred and a cut of any royalties yielded are musts of course.)

I've been toying with the idea of breaking ships down into basically 12-gun "blocks" for each weight, then slowing or accelerating the decay rate based on guns over/under each "block". For example, a Large 74 would start with X number of chits for its LD of twenty-eight 32's adjusted with a slightly-slowed decay for being two over (below the half-mark, use the lower number with slower decay, above higher number and faster, in each case the closer to the half-mark the more pronounced the effect), the reverse (higher block, faster reduce) for thirty 24's, then a further number added for the upperworks guns--since there were normally sixteen whether 12pdr or carronade, one block at slow reduction. (Or for finer resolution reduce the building blocks to six or even four guns.)

[Bligh]

Ohh I am so looking forward to adding these to my fleets

I have to admit Chris that with each little extra bit of information the pressure is building. I was taking it all very stoically whilst it was sometime in the future. Now the time is getting closer the excitement is growing. Only a couple of months now.
Rob.

[Bligh]

Sven is discussing the number of guns for the Santa Ana here:- http://sailsofglory.org/showthread.php?4240-Sails-of-Glory-Wave-3-ships-at-the-Ares-Games-homepage&p=65083#post65083

Rob.