Napoleonic Twodecker with white stripes?

[Torrence]

I am looking for a British/French Twodecker from the Napoleonic era that had a black-white paintscheme instead of the usual black-yellow.
Best would be a historical painting or description to proof it.
Purpose: I am playing with the thought of repainting one of the current SoG Twodeckers in black and white and would be very happy to know a historical ship it could be used to portrait.
I do know that many British ships were repainted black and white after about 1820 (also with a horizontally striped stem) but I wonder if the black-white colour scheme was already used in the Napoleonic Wars?

Hope someone can help me with this very specific question! :question:

[Nightmoss]

First image I came up with is HMS Thunderer, 1783. The only image I saw in color is under copyright via Getty Images. Here's a link via Google, but I'll keep looking. :wink:


https://www.google.com/search?q=hms+thunderer+1783&tbm=isch&tbs=simg:CAQSigEahwELEKjU2AQaAAwLELCMpwgaYgpgCAMSKOoKpRWkFegC5gLVCsoFphXTCssKjzmgII8rvyLPOZMqyznOK9I5jisaMKYjFmj02hITnBQaRIkpcNNLO5QapXXys8Qoi5zfhe6fCjivFALIBpP5hjVoMjPfyyADDAsQjq7-CBoKCggIARIEVO7tzgw&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjH6K2HzZjKAhXD8z4KHesqCrsQwg4IGigA&biw=1776&bih=875

Here's a direct link via Magnolia Box: http://www.magnoliabox.com/tag/royal%20marines

[Nightmoss]

Another image of a British ship, but it is unidentified. From the Royal Museums Greenwich collections.

http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/111759.html

[Dobbs]

I'm not terribly knowledgeable about such things, but it strikes me that after the Napoleonic Wars, beakheads were built differently, more enclosed than they had been. The picture of the Thunderer looks like it might be using artistic license since she was broken up in1814.

[Dobbs]

I'm not terribly knowledgeable about such things, but it strikes me that after the Napoleonic Wars, beakheads were built differently, more enclosed than they had been. The picture of the Thunderer looks like it might be using artistic license since she was broken up in1814 yet she's exhibiting the more modern beakhead and paint scheme.

[Naharaht]

This might be difficult because could the white simply be faded yellow or a mistake by the artist? You really need a document stating that this ship was painted in black and white.

[Bligh]

19022


This extract taken from an article by Ray Trochim may help to shed some light on the matter Richard.


Essentially, privateers and some frigate captains painted their ships any way they wanted, either out of necessity or for deception. These ships could occasionally be all white, all yellow orche, all red, all black, or all slate blue-gray. The most common scheme for the frigates and brigs was the back hull and a colored stripe (yellow, red, reddish-yellow, white, green, or maybe light blue) which would sometimes be made wider or narrower in the hopes that it would camouflage their size when viewed from a distance. For ships of the line, paint schemes tend to be a little bit more involved.

Early in the 1700’s, ships’ hulls would be painted yellow orche or clear varnished wood with narrow black streaks along the wales of the ship’s sides (see figure 1), but it is likely that other variations upon this basic theme were used on ships of all navies. After 1780, British captains were given yellow and black paint for their ship’s hulls. Its application to the hulls was at the discretion of the captain. If a captain should choose, he was able to add other colors to be used in painting the ship (rarely white), but this was done at his own expense. Other navies followed a similar practice with their ships, with red or maroon and black being the most common colors in the Spanish navy. Several paint schemes began to emerge during this period. Ships would be painted black with single or multiple stripes. See figures 2, 3 and 4 for some examples. These stripes were either solid, one broad stripe along the hull, one wide stripe on the upper or lower hull of the ship, or even no stripes at all. In some cases, the stripes on the hull did not necessarily run along the lines of the gun ports.
A new checkered paint scheme has been said to have originated in the Royal Navy around the 1790’s and was copied by the other navies of the world. When it actually started and who actually used this new paint scheme first is anybody’s guess, but the stripes with black gun ports seems to have been referred to as the "Nelson checker" and the paint scheme became more common in the Royal Navy as he rose to prominence (see figure 4, but with black gun ports). By the Napoleonic wars, this new checkered paint scheme was the most popular among captains of all navies, but other paint schemes like that shown in figure 2 and others would still be in use.
During the periods of the American and French Revolutions, ship colors were not very well defined. By the Napoleonic period (roughly 1800-1815), a lose set of national patterns had started to emerge. However, there will always be exceptions. The British navy began to adopt the Nelson Checker using yellow on black. A contemporary described the yellow used by the British as "baby puke yellow" but most paintings and other sources place it as a yellow ochre or rich yellow, but as this faded I can see how the term baby puke yellow got started. This color was used more and more on ships of the Royal Navy when it became a standard, but the transition didn’t happen overnight. The United States navy began to adopt a similar pattern using white on black. French ships were painted in various forms using black with red stripes or different shades of yellow (dominant color). The use of white was uncommon and did not begin to be more widespread until about 1810 to 1812. Even so, you can still paint French ships with yellow or red stripes. Also, don’t over look the possibility of red with white channels or trim. Spanish ships were painted in various forms as well, but red or maroon would be the most common color for their ships. Other navies would be similar to the British and French navies. Some Russian ships might have used green, but the use of green on black is questionable. I would be interested in hearing from others with supporting evidence that green stripes were used on any ship-of-the-line.



19018


19019

19020


19021


Some Historical Paint Schemes


Some examples of ships at The Battle of the Nile 1798 taken from a data sheet provided by Davco miniatures:
British ships
HMS Alexander: Plain yellow sides with a black stroke
HMS Goliath: Yellow sides with a black stroke between upper and lower rows of gun ports
HMS Culloden: Yellow sides with two narrow black strokes between upper and lower gun ports
HMS Zealous: Red sides with a narrow yellow stripe
HMS Minotaur: Red sides with a black stroke between upper and lower gun ports
French ships
Le Guerrier: Dark yellow sides
L’ Aquilon: Red sides with a black stroke between the upper and lower gun ports
Le Franklin: Medium yellow sides
Le Heureux: Very dark yellow sides
Le Timoleon: Very dark red sides
Le Guillaume: Light yellow sides with black stroke between upper and lower decks
Some examples of ships at The Battle of Trafalgar 1805 taken from a data sheet provided by GHQ and other sources:
All of the British ships were painted in the "Nelson Checker" of alternating black and yellow stripes and black gun ports. To further distinguish the British ships from the French/Spanish ships, the British painted their masts yellow instead of having the normal varnished wood. Yards and mast tops were still black. There was no standard color scheme among the French and Spanish ships. The French ship Neptune for example had reddish-yellow stripes on a black hull while the Intrepide might have had bright red stripes Others had red or yellow stripes of various shades. Some Spanish ships such as the San Justo and Santa Anna were painted almost all black and the Spanish Santissima Trinidad, a four deck ship-of-the-line, had a deep red hull and a narrow band of white under each of the four rows of gun ports. Other sources suggest that the S. Trinidad was painted red with white stripes, and another description gives it red stripes edged white on black, and yet, one other reference suggests that the ship was actually white, with red stripes!

For the full article go here:-

http://www.larsonweb.com/Transfer/Miniatures/Sail/NAPSHIPS.htm

Rob.

[Torrence]

Rob, thank you for the article! Interesting read and I like the simple display of the different paint schemes.

I also found a painting of HMS Bellerophon and HMS Northumberland were both seem to have white stripes: http://imageweb-cdn.magnoliasoft.net/nmm/supersize/pw7994.jpg
It's a hand coloured copper engraving by Jean Jerome Baugean from 1816. So the question remains, as David and Dobbs said: Is the yellow just faded / was artistic licens used when it came to colouring?

Is there maybe something like a... "Naval Listing of ships of each era and how they were painted at specific historical battles" (like the data sheet provided by GHQ in the article Rob shared with us)? That would be perfect!:hatsoff:

[Bligh]

Ares certainly seem to think Bellerophon was in the black and yellow scheme Richard.
Rob.

[Devsdoc]

Hi All,
Ray's piece has been around for a very long time. For a long time the only guide! I think it was in the 70's or 80's that it was written. Access to more historical information over the past years has now over-taken his piece. This is not to say Ray's piece is wrong or bad, just a little out-dated for now. It is now no-longer the bible of painting model ships for wargaming it was. His work has now grown a new breed of information and ideas of this period. I must thank Ray for his work, for without it we would still be in the Dark-ages.
Be safe
Rory

[Bligh]

Can you point us to any salient features of this new information Rory. We can then bring Rays work up to date.
Rob.

[Devsdoc]

Can you point us to any salient features of this new information Rory. We can then bring Rays work up to date.
Rob.

The frist is Rod Langton's how to Rig and paint. Some of Osprey's books. Seaforth Publishing, Conway Maritime Press, To name some books publishers. The Greenwich Maritime Museum, one of many Museums now open to us by "On-line" or foot.
I show History to schools, museums etc. I was told that never only one source, unless it is original and not someone saw, heard. or write of from someone else.
I do one thing wrong openly. All my French ships are Deep-Red" this is wrong. I know its wrong and say so. I would hate that someone would see my ships and think they are historical right. I shout this out all the time. It helps to show which side a ship is on.
Hope this helps a little, Rob
Be safe
Rory

[Bligh]

Thanks a lot for that very detailed expo Rory.
I was expecting a quick one liner. That is most useful. Thanks again.
Rob.

[Nightmoss]

Posted on the Naval Action forums by an individual who works for the Naval Museum of Madrid:

Spanish official colours between 1720 (F) to 1830 (A):

19157

[Torrence]

Thanks Rory, I found at least two ship models similar to what I am looking for in my first, quick search:

French ship Algesiras (1804)
Model from 1804: http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/66608.html (although you could argue the colour looks more creme than white...)

Unknown French vessel:
Model from around 1800: http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/65974.html


Jim, as stated above: I love depictions of that kind!

[Bligh]

Great to see you found them Richard.
It gives a bit of leeway for painting some slightly different ships now.
I especially like the French one with the red port lids up.
Rob.

[Nightmoss]

I agree with Rob. That second ship with the red port lids is one sharp looking ship. :thumbsup:

[Devsdoc]

Posted on the Naval Action forums by an individual who works for the Naval Museum of Madrid:

Spanish official colours between 1720 (F) to 1830 (A):

19157

Hi Jim,
Can You date B to E for me please.
Be safe
Rory

[Nightmoss]

Hey Rory,

Here's what I found when I tracked down that image on todo a Babor: http://www.todoababor.es/historia/

I'll paste the article comments, which aren't actually dating images C, D and E as it turns out. Remember these are Google translations of the Spanish:

As we have previously noted the type of pattern to paint the ships was already regulated in the Royal Navy since 1776 and in successive ordinances that kept to the individual commander or engineer arsenals paint a ship outside the rules. But these rules were not always met and often painted ships was quite different to what should be a desired uniformity, following in many cases the prevailing fashion in the navies of other countries. It is also true that these cases were given more often before the official or in the early stages of the same regulations. Thus we have the illustration (F) of a ship of the line of the early eighteenth century. Batteries are not highlighted in any color background and black paint is limited to a thick black stripe at the waterline. At that time is not living copper rawhide work, which is painted, usually white, the same.

Illustrations (C, D and E) are different patterns of painting, adopting the black helmet in all of them and changing only in the design of the yellow line of the batteries, which could range from a fine line between the bridges, only one battery or both totally apart.

These types of design are based on paintings or engravings of the time, usually prior to the ordinances of 1776, prescribing paint the vessel as shown in illustration (B), and that was not changed, with one exception only authorized periods by King (see Trinity ) until approximately 1810 that the white color was adopted to replace the batteries wore yellow, as illustrated (A). By regulation had to repaint the ships every two years, but this was subject to numerous uncertainties, which made ​​the ships could not be painted in such regulation, and that beautiful, lustrous color that came from the arsenals could eventually become, with the passage of time and the harsh marine conditions in something totally different. The yellow color of batteries could be just in memory or off color as far seem that the ship did not have their lines marked batteries. So, in times of Trafalgar some British viewers noted that several Spanish ships looked completely black on their sides, with the Santa Ana and San Justo two of these ships, which could well be the cause they were the last ships unsized at full speed and that surely did not even repaint time, figuring their nearly invisible yellow bands in the distance. However, there were also in the same period of Spanish ships commanders who paid out of pocket cost painted, not detract against the French ships.

Text was taken from here: http://www.todoababor.es/vida_barcos/nav.htm

More information on design painting here: http://www.todoababor.es/vida_barcos/elnavio.htm#pinturas

Hope this helps? I very much enjoy moving around this web resource. Some wonderful information and images. There's even a listing of Russian ships? I don't think it's complete, but it's interesting to look over:

http://www.todoababor.es/datos_docum/nav_rus_a_n.htm

[Devsdoc]

Jim,
Thanks for you help. It is a very good stite
Be safe
Rory

[Bligh]

Very true. Some really interesting pictures on there.
Now just need to set up Google Translate, and I will be back there.
Rob.

[Torrence]

Thank you, Jim, the pictures on that site are very interesting.
If we could find the same for the Royal Navy/French Navy?

[Dobbs]

Here's a question about white stripes: Is there any historical justification for the white stripe on HMS Sybille/Amelia, or is it just Ares making the ships easier to distinguish?

[Torrence]

Here, we also found historical paintings of both vessels, listed in our "Depictions" thread:
http://www.sailsofglory.org/showthread.php?3808-Depictions-of-the-ships-behind-the-SoG-miniatures&p=55843#post55843

For the Sybille, two with a flesh-coloured stripe:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/81/Sybille_vs_Chiffone-cropped.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1d/Sybille_vs_Forte.jpg

For the Amelia one with a white stripe:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3e/John_Christian_Schetky%2C_HMS_Amelia_Chasing_the_French_Frigate_Ar%C3%A9thuse_1813_%281852%29.jpg

[Dobbs]

Here, we also found historical paintings of both vessels, listed in our "Depictions" thread:
http://www.sailsofglory.org/showthread.php?3808-Depictions-of-the-ships-behind-the-SoG-miniatures&p=55843#post55843

For the Sybille, two with a flesh-coloured stripe:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/81/Sybille_vs_Chiffone-cropped.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1d/Sybille_vs_Forte.jpg

For the Amelia one with a white stripe:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3e/John_Christian_Schetky%2C_HMS_Amelia_Chasing_the_French_Frigate_Ar%C3%A9thuse_1813_%281852%29.jpg

So, our references show Sybille with a buff stripe, and the colors in the picture of Amelia are pretty washed out. It could be white, or overzealous tinting... :happy: