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Dobbs
12-22-2015, 17:37
I have been considering a rule where, if you want to avoid an impending collision orc don't like where your moves are taking you, you can cast off your sheets and stop, then pick new cards. This is for when using the planning ahead rules.

First step is announcing your intention before movement. If both players are considering this tactic to avoid a collision, handle it by picking chits like boarding. A zero indicates staying with the original movements.

If stopping, instead of your regular movement, your ship will now move the width of the range ruler (placed in front of the ship, advancing the forward edge over the ruler. You may also choose to keep one corner stationary and move the other up to a ruler's width (to turn).

On the next turn, the ship remains stationary, but the owner picks a new movement card for the following turn. Movement on the first turn will be at the single sail speed, building each turn until at the chosen sail setting.

What do you all think?

Bligh
05-10-2016, 04:24
Just spotted this Dobbs, and as we are considering things about the collision rules in the other thread as well, I thought it was worth answering you here.
I like the idea in principle, but think we need to look at the circumstances. If two enemy ships are heading for a collision, captains should be allowed to do their utmost to avoid the inevitable, unless they wish to board. In that case yes I like your solution.
If on the other hand, one of your own ships is stupid enough to run on board of you he should take the consequences.
Where I have a problem is when in Line of battle.
If your lead ship hits the enemy, even if you are sailing with the correct intervals between ships, his sudden stop, combined with you having committed to two cards in advance can lead to a multiple pile up as ships run into the back of each other.
They should have the option of either shortening sail immediately, or altering their second card to a turn to avoid the situation, in much the way you have suggested using the range ruler.
As a rider to this, should the same damage be sustained when running before the wind with full sail, as a ship tacking under say backing or fighting sails. Also if you employ wind strength, should that not effect the amount of damage sustained rather than the burden of the ship alone?
Rob.

Capn Duff
05-15-2016, 03:59
I agree Rob, as said in previous thread, I find it strange when in line of battle that the rules allow a concertina to take place instead of a natural moving around.
I think if the lead ship in a line suddenly stops for what ever reason, the next ship in line becomes the new lead and the rest follow this ship.
The new lead immediately gets to choose 2 new cards to avoid the focal point.

Bligh
05-15-2016, 04:01
Seems very sound to me Chris.
If he can't avoid a collision in those circumstances he is sailing too close and deserves everything he gets.
Rob.

Capn Duff
05-15-2016, 04:06
That would be the reasoning for me, you can go down the line with this me hanic.
If all then collide then the captains are in the wrong job

David Manley
05-15-2016, 06:56
These discussions illustrate why I don't like the 2 card system and much prefer the single card approach as a better game mechanic and fit to reality

Hjl
05-15-2016, 11:12
These discussions illustrate why I don't like the 2 card system and much prefer the single card approach as a better game mechanic and fit to reality

I think the 2 card approach is intended to simulated how slowly these ships change course. That is an enormous mass to change direction easily, esp without the benefit of modern thrusters etc.

Comte de Brueys
05-16-2016, 07:05
...
If your lead ship hits the enemy, even if you are sailing with the correct intervals between ships, his sudden stop, combined with you having committed to two cards in advance can lead to a multiple pile up as ships run into the back of each other...

The Doncaster incident. :erk:

That's why you have to test setup, distances of own and enemy ships for a line battle.

Eric suggested a good system for line battles.

Each second turn the allied captains are able to discuss strategies.


I'm no friend of changing planed maneuvers and if captains caused a mass carambolage of course bad navigation... :smack:


(How to emergency stop a ship of he line? :question:)

Herkybird
05-16-2016, 12:40
I think a good house rule for lines of battle would be to have each ship in line use the first ships deck, until they start shooting. This prevents historical lines concertina-ing into each other, if like real lines, you deploy the larger, slower ships first in line.
The rationale is that the rules only allow set sail settings, minor adjustments are possible to adjust speed within each of these settings.

Thoughts? :question:

Bligh
05-16-2016, 13:30
The problem we had was not due to wrong positioning. The first ship in out line was hit by the enemy cutting across its line suddenly and stopping it dead. By the time the next ship had played its two cards it hit the first ship, and so did the next. I was at the back and played my two straights without hitting the one in front, but even by shortening sails and turning the sharpest I could I struck it a glancing blow. The lead french ship by its maneuver took no damage, but nearly a third of the points were wiped off the British Fleet in one fell swoop. That in my opinion is a tactical master plan.
Rob.

Herkybird
05-16-2016, 14:45
That is fine, but does it reflect a historical outcome/stratagem? --or is it an unfortunate happenstance?

Bligh
05-16-2016, 15:07
Only the French Commander on the day could tell you that.
Rob.

TexaS
05-16-2016, 15:34
The problem we had was not due to wrong positioning. The first ship in out line was hit by the enemy cutting across its line suddenly and stopping it dead. By the time the next ship had played its two cards it hit the first ship, and so did the next. I was at the back and played my two straights without hitting the one in front, but even by shortening sails and turning the sharpest I could I struck it a glancing blow. The lead french ship by its maneuver took no damage, but nearly a third of the points were wiped off the British Fleet in one fell swoop. That in my opinion is a tactical master plan.
Rob.

This is an example of how unrealistic rules trying to penalize friendly collisions and not favour hostile collisions due to them being unhistorical can derail totally and still make for very stupid gamey results that penalizes historical formations of the time and not any historical formation but THE historical formation.

That is a very good reason for really looking for another way to handle collisions.

Herkybird
05-16-2016, 15:54
And that is why I do not have collisions cause damage, its fair to both sides, and allows ships to continue pounding each other to bits, which is the fun part of the game to me!

Bligh
05-16-2016, 16:48
And that is why I do not have collisions cause damage, its fair to both sides, and allows ships to continue pounding each other to bits, which is the fun part of the game to me!

I must bow to your line of reasoning Richard. It will certainly make life easier, and you still get to do your boarding actions.
Rob.

Hjl
05-16-2016, 19:12
And that is why I do not have collisions cause damage, its fair to both sides, and allows ships to continue pounding each other to bits, which is the fun part of the game to me!


I agree, i often ignore collisions when it ruins the game, especially in solo games.

Comte de Brueys
05-17-2016, 05:09
The problem we had was not due to wrong positioning. The first ship in out line was hit by the enemy cutting across its line suddenly and stopping it dead. By the time the next ship had played its two cards it hit the first ship, and so did the next...

That's why communication and reaction are needed in line battles.

The moment the enemy line closes in to breach your line, you have to react with maneuvers.

It should work, even if you play with two maneuvers planed. If it doesn't work, then I guess both lines where to close for each other.




Maybe I have a lonesome position here with playing collissions correctly. :wink:

But if you play with advanced rules and all the stuff - it simply belongs together.

TexaS
05-17-2016, 05:36
The problem here is scale. Movement and fire ranges aren't the same scale almost by a factor of ten.
If you have gaps in the line to accommodate two moves with no risk of collision tha line would have no ability at all to support each other with fire. This is a fundamental flaw in the system for fighting in battle lines and using the collision rules.

This makes my thought that it's best suited for frigate actions and not engagements with ships of the line.

This means in my opinion that I could either wait for the fleet battles system that's been mentioned or play with house rules to make it work.

Capn Duff
05-17-2016, 06:56
That's why communication and reaction are needed in line battles.

The moment the enemy line closes in to breach your line, you have to react with maneuvers.

It should work, even if you play with two maneuvers planed. If it doesn't work, then I guess both lines where to close for each other.




Maybe I have a lonesome position here with playing collissions correctly. :wink:

But if you play with advanced rules and all the stuff - it simply belongs together.

The big problem we will all have with correct spacing will be playing surface size, at Doncaster we had a limited table so the models were necessarily closer and did not have time to react with the cards chosen, hense the concertina and consequent damage for the English fleet.
I would much prefer a system that would allow seasoned captains, as most eould be, to avoid such, I understand Richard's view and I like the game mechanic to avoid friends sailing too close, but I think something a little more needed.
Maybe no damage just check for fouling and start with fresh cards, this could benefit the ships sailing correct distances as they would have a card or so to gain a tactical advantage.

Bligh
06-01-2016, 04:50
The downside to giving the ships more wiggle room is of course the window it opens to the opposing fleet to cut the line without danger of going aboard the enemy.
Rob.