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rrrreubanks
03-08-2012, 13:10
I am working on an American fleet, and thus far have stuck to historically active ships. I know several US players, though, who have included 74s in their fleet, and even one who was thinking of including the first rate Pennsylvania, which I don't think ever got into the water. What are your thoughts? Is it kosher to use ships that didn't actually make it into battle, in this case to give the American player access to "evening out" the odds?

Rob

David Manley
03-08-2012, 14:01
Yes, absolutely if you are playing friendly games, running hypothetical campaigns etc. I've done many such games and campaigns in other historical settings with "what if" ships involved. Not regularly as personally I like my counterfactual gaming to be rooted more towards "reality" but doing it occasionally is just fine.

And after all, at the end of the day its your game and no-one should really tell you that you are doing it wrong if you are enjoying it :)

Coog
03-08-2012, 16:09
I am working on an American fleet, and thus far have stuck to historically active ships.

What American ships do you have and what model manufacturers did you use?

rrrreubanks
03-09-2012, 09:13
Coog, I have ready for battle the following: Constellation, Congress, Essex, United States and a little 28-gun frigate called Boston. All of these are Langtons except the Congress, which is a GHQ hull with the other parts being Langton. I much prefer Langton, although I do mix in the odd GHQ when I find a hull I like. Unfortunately the GHQ Congress is longer than the Langton Constellation! On the quays I have two 32-gun frigates and the Langton former EIC 64 to represent the Bonhomme Richard.

What do you use/have?
Rob

Coog
03-09-2012, 09:42
Here is a link from another thread that has a list of my models:

http://sailsofglory.org/showthread.php?304-What-Ship-Models-Do-You-Own

Many of the U.S. ships are conversions...not perfect but very close in appearance. Everything I have is GHQ and GHQ parts. I used Chapelle's The American Sailing Navy as a guide for conversions. It if you are not familiar with it, it has over 200 line line drawings and is the most comprehensive book on American sailing warships from gunboats to the Pennsylvania. I plan on making an Independence for a hypothetical break out scenerio.

rrrreubanks
03-09-2012, 13:44
I hadn't heard of that reference but I'll have to get it. I will probably keep the US navy as one of my mainstays. What will you use for the Independence (Brit, French, other)?

Coog
03-09-2012, 15:28
You can get an old copy on eBay as low as $9.00 including shipping. I highly recommend the book. I'll use the hull of a British 74 and the sails and ship's boats from a U.S. 44/38. The sails for the U.S. frigates are actually much larger than those on the British 74 model. The Americans were known for over rigging their ships. GHQ will let you order them separately.

rrrreubanks
03-09-2012, 20:00
Thanks for that lead, Bobby; I'll have to check ebay this weekend. I looked it up earlier but I forget now...how many guns was the Independence?

Coog
03-09-2012, 20:57
Thanks for that lead, Bobby; I'll have to check ebay this weekend. I looked it up earlier but I forget now...how many guns was the Independence?

She was rated as a 74. Wikipedia has 90, but that is incorrect. Washington and Franklin were sister ships. Typically, she would have carried more guns than she was rated with 63 long 32 pounders and 24 carronades, 32 pounders.

Anav
03-10-2012, 07:31
http://www.navsource.org/archives/09/46/46903.htm
http://www.history.navy.mil/danfs/i1/independence-ii.htm


Some links on the Independence
She was built with 90guns then razeed to 54 guns in 1836

rrrreubanks
03-10-2012, 09:01
Cool! I will most definitely need some 74s, so I can see Independence and perhaps a sister joining the fleet.

Coog
03-10-2012, 13:13
Although Independence was rated as a 74, she and her sisters were bigger than most 74's of the British Navy, as well as carrying far more guns than her rating. British 74's carried around 80 guns. As far as modeling goes, I will stick to using a 74 hull, as it will be closer in size than larger SOL hulls and at 1/1200 scale not that noticeable.

rrrreubanks
03-10-2012, 14:11
Ok, my turn to be confused. I read those two links provided by Steve and both say Independence carried 90 guns when she first went to war. Bobby, are you going to play her as a 74, or do you mean to use a 74 hull but play her with 90 guns? (and again, I'm assuming you're modelling her to use in gaming).
Rob

Coog
03-10-2012, 14:56
I can see where you are confused. I am going to use her as a ship rated as a 74, as that was her official rating. Most ships carried more guns than their ratings indicated. Chesapeake and Shannon were rated as 38 gun frigates. But when they met in battle, Chesapeake carried 50 guns and Shannon 52. To add to the confusion, not every country followed the same rating practices.
U. S. ship ratings were similar to British ships. In a game system, a U.S. 74 may have higher firepower numbers for determining combat than a British 74 due to the difference in the number of guns carried. Here is a link that may explain ratings better than I can:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rating_system_of_the_Royal_Navy

Anav
03-10-2012, 17:11
Another link about American SOL's
http://www.hazegray.org/danfs/line/sotl.htm#inde

Anav
03-10-2012, 17:14
The Independence was 190ft 9in long
The Victory was 227ft long.

Coog
03-10-2012, 18:47
The Independence was 190ft 9in long
The Victory was 227ft long.

Granted the Independence was a big 74 and more heavily armed than other nations 74's. This should be reflected in rule sets in regard to firepower and damage capacity. However, for model purposes, my choices are limited. The Boyne 98, for which there is a model, is actually closest in size to the Independence but she has three gun decks. The Bellona 74, for which there is also a model, was 22 feet shorter in length and 7 feet shorter at the beam than Independence. She has two gun decks, as does Independence and is closer in appearance. By using the sails for the GHQ American frigates, which are much larger than the ones used on GHQ's Bellona model, and having a ship's boat suspended from the stern, as typical on American ships, will give the Independence model using the Bellona hull a larger appearance when viewed with a model of the Bellona. For game purposes this should suffice.

csadn
03-10-2012, 21:53
The Americans were known for over rigging their ships.

Not the case -- in fact, the Humphreys frigates in particular, and US frigates in general, were *under*-sparred for their sizes; when it was worked out how much extra rigging was needed, and how much the ships could actually withstand, then one gets the "oversparred" sail plans US ships are known for.

David Manley
03-10-2012, 23:27
US frigates in general, were *under*-sparred for their sizes

Indeed. I'm working on some 1/450 scale models for the game I'm running at the naval Wargames Show in Gosport in June and it is noticeable that the spars and rigging for the Constitution appear rather lighter than those of other ships.

Coog
03-11-2012, 16:16
Not the case -- in fact, the Humphreys frigates in particular, and US frigates in general, were *under*-sparred for their sizes; when it was worked out how much extra rigging was needed, and how much the ships could actually withstand, then one gets the "oversparred" sail plans US ships are known for.

I stand corrected. I thought I had read that they were over rigged, but after thinking about it, if I did I read it somewhere I have not seen it since in any other books.

csadn
03-12-2012, 00:09
I stand corrected. I thought I had read that they were over rigged, but after thinking about it, if I did I read it somewhere I have not seen it since in any other books.

They *appeared* over-rigged to Europeans; the Euros thought three levels of sails was enough for a frigate. The Americans discovered the heavies needed a fourth and occasionally a fifth, plus the studding sails outboard of the regular sails. (Mark Lardas's _American Heavy Frigates_ has a painting of _Constitution_ with "everything open but the toolbox", and a painting of _United States_ with its original sail plan -- makes for an interesting comparo. :) )

rrrreubanks
03-12-2012, 08:13
THat last comment is interesting, and could be easily modelled by adding the fourth sail up (sorry, can't recall the name of it right now). It would make the US ships more distinctive on the game table.

Coog
03-12-2012, 15:55
THat last comment is interesting, and could be easily modelled by adding the fourth sail up (sorry, can't recall the name of it right now). It would make the US ships more distinctive on the game table.

The GHQ sails for their American frigates are already that way. Their sails for sloops are also that way.

csadn
03-12-2012, 16:20
THat last comment is interesting, and could be easily modelled by adding the fourth sail up (sorry, can't recall the name of it right now). It would make the US ships more distinctive on the game table.

From bottom to top: Course; topsail; topgallant; royal; skysail; [name varies]