Indian Ocean Engagement

[Coog]

Taking a spin off scenerio from the Pacific Squadron, what if USS Constitution, USS Essex, and USS Hornet proceeded through the South Pacific and into the Indian Ocean with the intention of rounding the Cape of Good Hope and entering the South Atlantic on their way home with some prizes. However, a British 74 on station in the Indian Ocean stands in their way before they can make to the Cape. As I see it, Hornet would stand off and let the two frigates deal with the 74. It seems that the two frigates would have enough firepower, along with maneuverability, to deal with the 74, particularly with Bainbridge and Porter commanding them. But as with Constitution's fight with Cyane and Levant, coordinating two ships in an attack would be very difficult. I hope to run the scenerio one day but until then, any thoughts on the outcome?

[David Manley]

Probably messy for both sides. Looking at the numbers I'd give the edge to the US unless the 74 was well disposed with dismantling shot and a captain choosing to use it. I guess a lot depends on the "command aim" of the US squadron.

[Mark Barker]

I guess a lot depends on the "command aim" of the US squadron.

... and the armament options deployed.

Assume Essex with long gun armament and not the suidical "carronades only" refit ?

Also, it depends exactly which British 74 - Common, Middling or a Large class with 24-pdr on the upper gun deck.

Likely to be a good fight but I'd take the proper two decker with 32-pdr main batteries. With a Large class I would be pretty confident of coming out on top.

Mark

PS Flying over the Indian Ocean tomorrow - I'll give it a wave for you !

[Bligh]

Well Gentlemen we will just have to play it and see how it turns out.
Bligh.

[David Manley]

Already working on it :)

[Coog]

I look at it two different ways...as it would have occurred in real life and what would occur in a game.

In real life I believe that Bainbridge in Constitution would out-maneuver a 74 and get in a good raking at long range with his 24 pounders to start the engagement. The 74 should be able to take the damage, even if Constitution got in more than one raking, and eventually get in a position to trade broadsides. It would be quite bloody from there. Constitution would only be saved by Porter closing with Essex and either raking or coming alongside the 74 on the unengaged side where the guns would be unmanned. Essex's broadside with her 32 pounder carronades would be devasting to rigging and crew of the already mauled 74. If Constitution could disengage, the two frigates could repeatedly attack the crippled 74 from raking positions until its captain had to strike. The Americans would have a 74 as a prize. Getting it to the United States, as well as a badly damaged Constitution, would be another matter.

In a game, it should be quite simple. The two American frigates would have more combined firepower and could take more combined damage. The 74 gets sunk, probably taking one of the frigates with it.

[csadn]

Four words: "Aim for the rigging". First order of business is to kill the 74's ability to maneuver; once that's sorted, the floating fortress is doomed. If the US ships try to go toe-to-toe with it, they're going to get slit up a treat. Whichever way it plays out, the US won't be able to take the 74 with them -- it will have to be scuttled if it's taken; otherwise, it's not going to be taken in the first place. Which leads to....

In Reality: The frigates would never be so stupid as to engage a single heavier ship which they could as easily outrun -- and there is exactly zero chance the 74 will be able to maneuver to keep up with them.

[Coog]

In Reality: The frigates would never be so stupid as to engage a single heavier ship which they could as easily outrun -- and there is exactly zero chance the 74 will be able to maneuver to keep up with them.

I agree. But it would be a boring thing if we gamers stuck too close to reality!

[David Manley]

Four words: "Aim for the rigging". First order of business is to kill the 74's ability to maneuver

Sauce for the goose - one of the tricks I like to play occasionally when driving RN SoLs around is to throw around some dismantling shot early in the action. faced with three potentially more manoeuvrable vessels I'd be inclined to take some of them out of the equation by taking down a mast or three.


and there is exactly zero chance the 74 will be able to maneuver to keep up with them.

Depends on the weather. In good weather, yes. the frigates could choose whether to engage or not, and I agree they probably wouldn't. In poorer weather the 74 could well be more handy and thus could cope with the conditions better than the smaller frigates. Unlikely, but certainly better than a zero chance.

[csadn]

Sauce for the goose - one of the tricks I like to play occasionally when driving RN SoLs around is to throw around some dismantling shot early in the action. faced with three potentially more manoeuvrable vessels I'd be inclined to take some of them out of the equation by taking down a mast or three.

Assuming the rules allow it -- IIRC, _WS&IM_ among others strictly prohibits the British using chainshot. I know the British had anti-personnel ammo; but I'm unsure how frequently they used it -- their gunnery regime focused on hull-shots, at least early-on.


Depends on the weather. In good weather, yes. the frigates could choose whether to engage or not, and I agree they probably wouldn't. In poorer weather the 74 could well be more handy and thus could cope with the conditions better than the smaller frigates. Unlikely, but certainly better than a zero chance.

Define "poorer weather". If the sea state's high enough, there's going to be no fighting at all; everyone going to be more concerned with not getting swept overboard. And in most decent seas, a US frigate could outsail just about anything (even _United States_, with a bent false-keel from a launching accident, could outrun and outhandle the average enemy unit; or so say the reports I've seen).

[David Manley]

Assuming the rules allow it -- IIRC, _WS&IM_ among others strictly prohibits the British using chainshot.

Which really is a bit daft as british ships did use it. I suspect this was done to promote the "Brits shoot at the hull, French shoot at the rigging" idea.


And in most decent seas, a US frigate could outsail just about anything

The 44s most likely yes, the 38s , not so sure. But there are several accounts of SoLs getting the drop on frigates in higher sea states, at least enough to give the smaller ships a really good scare. And SoLs could maintain a higher press of canvas in higher winds than their smaller brethren. Not that dissimilar to more modern encounters, where smaller ships find higher sea states problematic, have increased issues in managing weapon systems and reduce speed

[David Manley]

Assuming the rules allow it -- IIRC, _WS&IM_ among others strictly prohibits the British using chainshot.

Which really is a bit daft as British ships did use it. I suspect this was done to promote the "Brits shoot at the hull, French shoot at the rigging" idea.


And in most decent seas, a US frigate could outsail just about anything

The 44s most likely yes, the 38s , not so sure. But there are several accounts of SoLs getting the drop on frigates in higher sea states, at least enough to give the smaller ships a really good scare. And SoLs could maintain a higher press of canvas in higher winds than their smaller brethren. Not that dissimilar to more modern encounters, where smaller ships find higher sea states problematic, have increased issues in managing weapon systems and reduce speed. But yes, obviously once the sea state gets too high its a case of "hang on to your hats and enjoy the ride"

Brings this video to mind, which reminds me of my last trip into the North Atlantic with "Grey Funnel Lines"


http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=T4FIS1FnOQg

[csadn]

Which really is a bit daft as british ships did use it. I suspect this was done to promote the "Brits shoot at the hull, French shoot at the rigging" idea.

Perhaps it was used, but "frowned upon"; it's amazing how often Hidebound Traditionalists in militaries can cause good ideas to be ignored or underutilized.


The 44s most likely yes, the 38s , not so sure. But there are several accounts of SoLs getting the drop on frigates in higher sea states, at least enough to give the smaller ships a really good scare. And SoLs could maintain a higher press of canvas in higher winds than their smaller brethren.

More sail, perhaps; what I'm thinking of is the ability to put one's bow closer to the wind (IIRC, the Humphreys frigates could get to six points off the wind, which few combat ships of the period could manage), or to be able to go places where a bigger ship couldn't. Then, of course, there's the simple brass of the captain and crew -- witness Hull's foxing of Broke during "the Chase of the _Constitution_"; both by soaking his sails; and by pretending to shorten sail for a forthcoming storm, but then cracking on every sheet it could carry once it was out-of-view.

[David Manley]

I sense an interesting experiment here, playing out the action with several different sets of rules to see what happens.

[csadn]

I sense an interesting experiment here, playing out the action with several different sets of rules to see what happens.

Working on it.... :)

[RedLeif]

Pardon my ignorance but what rules set is meant by IIRC.
I was familiar with Wooden Ships and Iron Men, so I got that reference.

Thanks
Leif

[David Manley]

IIRC = "If I recall correctly"