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TWR
02-16-2015, 02:57
Gents, a couple of questions.

Firstly, how many ships can realistically be used with the damage counters included in the basic game?

Secondly, the wording in the smoke marker description at the anchorage store seems to indicate there are two markers per pack, so only enough to illustrate two ships firing a single broadside each. Is that correct?

spiessbuerger
02-16-2015, 06:07
With 4 ships I never had trouble to run out of damage counters. Never played with more ships but six ships should also be possible. But it also depends from the size of the ships. The big ones can get a lot of damage until the game is over.

Yes, two smoke markers that can represent a ships both broadsides.

Jason
02-16-2015, 07:47
Last week I've run a scenario with a 1rst rate, three 3rd rates (4 SOL total), and 3 frigates. So 7 ships, and we were running low on chits pretty quick after an initial exchange of broadsides. After we went empty I decided to leave just a single face-down counter (selected randomly) on each damage box on heavily battered SOLs and throw the rest back to the drawing cup. Some players had issues with the distribution of counters - it was pretty obvious that at a certain moment in game there were no more zeroes left in the cup and some ships received devastating volleys taking SOLs from fresh to pretty much out-of-action in one broadside.

I am thinking how to remedy this without buying additional counter set for every four ships (as I would rather prefer getting new model than counters for the price) :/ Perhaps leaving just one facedown counter on a full damage box and throwing rest back to the cup? Maybe leaving zeroes on the stack with actual damage, so they could go back to cup when the box is full? I will certainly playtest this option.

Nightmoss
02-16-2015, 10:07
Last week I've run a scenario with a 1rst rate, three 3rd rates (4 SOL total), and 3 frigates. So 7 ships, and we were running low on chits pretty quick after an initial exchange of broadsides. After we went empty I decided to leave just a single face-down counter (selected randomly) on each damage box on heavily battered SOLs and throw the rest back to the drawing cup. Some players had issues with the distribution of counters - it was pretty obvious that at a certain moment in game there were no more zeroes left in the cup and some ships received devastating volleys taking SOLs from fresh to pretty much out-of-action in one broadside.

I am thinking how to remedy this without buying additional counter set for every four ships (as I would rather prefer getting new model than counters for the price) :/ Perhaps leaving just one facedown counter on a full damage box and throwing rest back to the cup? Maybe leaving zeroes on the stack with actual damage, so they could go back to cup when the box is full? I will certainly playtest this option.

A number of folks here have started using laminated ship logs where they mark off damage using a dry marker. I assume the chits go back in the back after every draw so this is another possible solution to having large ship actions without having to purchase additional damage counter sets?

Mycenius
02-21-2015, 12:39
I assume the chits go back in the back after every draw...

Just a thought but that would (potentially significantly) change game play - as you are modifying the probabilities of certain results as play progresses and making it like the first turn for the whole game - so I'd think the Chits would have to go into a "used" pile for each ship and NOT be returned to the bag - but still be able to be returned if the ship strikes it's colours, etc...

fredmiracle
02-21-2015, 14:04
Just a thought but that would (potentially significantly) change game play - as you are modifying the probabilities of certain results as play progresses and making it like the first turn for the whole game - so I'd think the Chits would have to go into a "used" pile for each ship and NOT be returned to the bag - but still be able to be returned if the ship strikes it's colours, etc...

You could certainly do that to adhere to the rules-as-written. It all depends on whether or not you think of the current behavior as a bug/odd artifact of using the randomizer as a marker. There doesn't seem to be any logical argument that the current behavior has a real life basis, and the game designers seem ambivalent about the issue. In short, as always, do what you and your comrades prefer...

Mycenius
02-21-2015, 15:38
You could certainly do that to adhere to the rules-as-written. It all depends on whether or not you think of the current behavior as a bug/odd artifact of using the randomizer as a marker. There doesn't seem to be any logical argument that the current behavior has a real life basis, and the game designers seem ambivalent about the issue. In short, as always, do what you and your comrades prefer...

Yep - I guess the point is the way it works now you "Can't" have a situation where someone draws 0,0,1,0,1,1,0,0,0,1,1 etc continuously as once all the 0 and 1 chits are gone there's only big ones left (or vice versa for repeatedly drawing lots of really bad damage chits) - but if you put all the chits back every time, then you could - and yeah I know it's statistically highly unlikely but it is possible...

just my 2 cents...

:wink:

fredmiracle
02-21-2015, 16:21
Yep - I guess the point is the way it works now you "Can't" have a situation where someone draws 0,0,1,0,1,1,0,0,0,1,1 etc continuously as once all the 0 and 1 chits are gone there's only big ones left (or vice versa for repeatedly drawing lots of really bad damage chits) - but if you put all the chits back every time, then you could - and yeah I know it's statistically highly unlikely but it is possible...

just my 2 cents...

:wink:

Yes your assessment is entirely correct.

Many would argue that replacing the chits is better, because it seems more logical to have constant probabilities (even if that means someone could get lucky repeatedly).

The extreme counter-example runs somethings like this: the way the game works now, if side X fires 3 chits at B-range, and hits Y with all 3 fire chits, and then next turn Y returns fire with 3 chits at B-range, there is no way X can suffer fire damage. Isn't that a bit odd?

But ultimately it comes down to personal preference.

Mycenius
02-21-2015, 17:07
Many would argue that replacing the chits is better, because it seems more logical to have constant probabilities (even if that means someone could get lucky repeatedly).

Indeed Fred - and of course comes back to how much is 'simulation' versus how much is 'game' - that point is valid from a simulation angle, but perhaps less valid from a game perspective (depending on what your game objectives are - the designer(s) may want to ensure that over X amount of time all the damage chits will be used, and all possible effects will occur to one participant or another).


The extreme counter-example runs somethings like this: the way the game works now, if side X fires 3 chits at B-range, and hits Y with all 3 fire chits, and then next turn Y returns fire with 3 chits at B-range, there is no way X can suffer fire damage. Isn't that a bit odd?

True, a fair point, and yes probably is - One counter though, might be, in the Napoleonic Wars X% (say 15% for discussions sake) of all ships that were sunk, destroyed, or struck their colours, did so due to a major fire - if you are playing with say 8 ships (4 a side) then you'd only expect 1 of those ships to suffer a major fire - Y was just unlucky! I know the % is just random but you get my gist - and yeah I know you can counter it the otherway against the contrary position above... But just some food for thought...


But ultimately it comes down to personal preference.

Yep indeed! Do what makes you enjoy the game the most! :happy:

On a related note though I was thinking what do you do when you buy a second set of chits - do you mix the 2 sets together - or use one set and when it's exhausted start using the second set (makes it a major PITA post game though to separate the 2 sets of chits all out again)! Then that completely changes the probabilities too early in a game (as you have twice as many of any chit you can draw)... At this point your head starts to hurt and you probably just end up going 'who cares, lets just play'!!

:bleh: :wink: :beer:

fredmiracle
02-21-2015, 19:11
On a related note though I was thinking what do you do when you buy a second set of chits - do you mix the 2 sets together - or use one set and when it's exhausted start using the second set

I recently mixed together two chit sets, while selectively picking out some of the chits to modify the damage probabilities. So I guess that shows where I fall in terms of maintaining the sanctity of the original design :wink:

TWR
02-21-2015, 22:42
We haven't yet gone beyond four ships engaged as mostly there are only two players per game.

However, I do want to have more ships in each game. If one person was providing all the chits I think I would mix them. But if a couple of players were providing them that's not an option that would clearly work, unless they wanted to denote the chits of course.

:happy:

Mycenius
02-22-2015, 03:13
I recently mixed together two chit sets, while selectively picking out some of the chits to modify the damage probabilities. So I guess that shows where I fall in terms of maintaining the sanctity of the original design :wink:

:shock: :shock: :shock:

Good Grief Man! Did the sky fall??!!! :takecover:

:wink: :bleh::hatsoff:

Mycenius
02-22-2015, 03:15
However, I do want to have more ships in each game. If one person was providing all the chits I think I would mix them. But if a couple of players were providing them that's not an option that would clearly work, unless they wanted to denote the chits of course.

:happy:

A curly question indeed Keith!

P.S. Did you notice that Admiral Eric has now created us a NZ Wardroom? :wink:

TWR
02-22-2015, 03:51
I hadn't noticed. I wonder if that will bring forward other NZ SOG players.

TexaS
02-22-2015, 05:58
I recently mixed together two chit sets, while selectively picking out some of the chits to modify the damage probabilities. So I guess that shows where I fall in terms of maintaining the sanctity of the original design :wink:

I have done so too, after your example, but I haven't played with it yet. :hatsoff:

7eat51
02-22-2015, 11:37
Ah, the probability discussion resurfaces. We had a fun time discussing this awhile back. A quick search should bring up various threads. I adopted laminated logs/mats, and replace chits after recording damage; I side with the constant probability crowd. The laminated logs/mats made set up, record keeping during the game, and tear down much easier, and I do not have to pack as much when running games outside of our home. Folks can carry their laminations around the table if desired, and less table space is needed - all preference, I know.

As for smoke, many of us adopted the practice of having the two sides be different in color or detail. We use one side to indicate a ship just fired, and the other side that the ship is reloading. It seems to help folks when looking at the table to figure out their maneuvers, and having that data readily available.

Mycenius
02-22-2015, 17:44
As for smoke, many of us adopted the practice of having the two sides be different in color or detail. We use one side to indicate a ship just fired, and the other side that the ship is reloading. It seems to help folks when looking at the table to figure out their maneuvers, and having that data readily available.

An interesting idea! :thumbsup: