Napoleon in Sails of Glory

[Warspite]

One of the things I like about other systematically similar games to sails of glory like x-wing is the various character/crew/upgrades/skills etc cards that you can tweak your build/ships with. Historical games are fantastic for this sort of thing since you have various historical things to draw from, Sails of glory in particular (the upgrade captain and crew cards are great but more would be even better) could really benefit to make the ships different so while HMS Vanguard and HMS Goliath are virtually identical(or are identical i havent compared) stat wise HMS Goliath could receive a captain card (foley) that gives it a special ability or tactic representing Foley and Goliaths actions at the battle of the nile.

Bringing up the subject of napoleon, a napoleon character card once again representing the french mission prior to the battle of the nile would be great for adding variety to the game and would add new gameplay having the french fleet (with bonuses/benefits from the napoleon card) acting in a different manner ex supporting a landing/invasion.

The game has soo much potential it really is untapped.

[fredmiracle]

One of the things I like about other systematically similar games to sails of glory like x-wing is the various character/crew/upgrades/skills etc cards that you can tweak your build/ships with. Historical games are fantastic for this sort of thing since you have various historical things to draw from, Sails of glory in particular (the upgrade captain and crew cards are great but more would be even better) could really benefit to make the ships different so while HMS Vanguard and HMS Goliath are virtually identical(or are identical i havent compared) stat wise HMS Goliath could receive a captain card (foley) that gives it a special ability or tactic representing Foley and Goliaths actions at the battle of the nile.

Bringing up the subject of napoleon, a napoleon character card once again representing the french mission prior to the battle of the nile would be great for adding variety to the game and would add new gameplay having the french fleet (with bonuses/benefits from the napoleon card) acting in a different manner ex supporting a landing/invasion.

The game has soo much potential it really is untapped.

I think it's a very interesting question. There are several dimension--first, the business trade-offs, second what is possible within the SGN system as it is, and third whether the SGN system could be tweaked to allow more options without losing its soul.

In general I think I agree with you. I've generally made my view known, that I think SGN should have embraced its "gameyness" and hobby potential a bit more, to allow things like a fleet-building dimension, greater incentives to collect, etc. Tastefully, within reason, but a bit more than what it is now. I think I'm very much in the minority on this board, but that is my perspective.

How much of SGN is the designers' preferences, and how much is market calculation is hard to say. It seems to me that Ares might have been trying to make the game more palatable to the traditional miniatures wargaming crowd, by making all the ships very similar and avoiding anything that some might construe as gimmicky (although I think most of those wargamers were out the doors with the 1:1000 scale, if not before). Anyway maybe that wasn't it.

But as SGN stands now, there is pretty limited room TO do anything. Granted, last summer in a half hour of brainstorming i came up with several abilities that struck me (in my great modesty) as equal or better to what is on the captain/crew deck. But still, it seems to me that there is a minimalist quality to SGN which is pleasant, and which the designers prize, but makes it harder to extend/tweak.

of course, if Ares had WANTED to make the game tweakable, within its rough current dimensions, they might have been able to do so. But basically that ship has sailed by now...

[Warspite]

The way to do it would be captain cards exclusively for certain ships ex foley on goliath, it could be a release like the captain and crew deck seperate so that if you don't want it you don't have to deal with it but it could essentially be a simple patch to add more to the game and appeal to the people who like to play the game every week at the FLGS and want more variety.

[Kentop]

I think a Napoleon card would have a deleterious affect on the French fleet. He completely tied the hands of his admirals who knew better how to engage the British navy. Nappy needed every possible boat he had to move his invasion army across the channel, so he issued his infamous order to avoid engaging the enemy and protect his ships at all costs. Admiral Villeneuve learned that Nappy had replaced him and wanted him to return to Paris to explain why he refused to follow orders. So the knucklehead set sail from Cadiz before he could be relieved, which led to the battle of Trafalgar. Villeneuve committed suicide by stabbing himself six times in his left lung and once in his heart while living in England after the battle. Nappy obviously had sent someone to murder him, and the British court ruled it a suicide!

[Ozariig]

How much of SGN is the designers' preferences, and how much is market calculation is hard to say. It seems to me that Ares might have been trying to make the game more palatable to the traditional miniatures wargaming crowd, by making all the ships very similar and avoiding anything that some might construe as gimmicky (although I think most of those wargamers were out the doors with the 1:1000 scale, if not before). Anyway maybe that wasn't it.

I think it's both. They presented the game that they wanted to make to Kickstarter and got 900% of what they were asking for, so I wouldn't be surprised if they figured that designer preference and the market were aligned.

But I agree with both of you. When I see a game like Sails of Glory, I see a collection of interesting mechanics and playing pieces that are begging to be analysed and tuned.

My own inclination when it comes to designing rules for components is to separate via types and balance them via points (engrained from too many collectable wargames, I'm afraid). I'd probably release relatively generic miniatures (representing ship classes) and provide several ship, crew, captain, armament, etc. cards for each class, allowing them to be tuned for specific situations. I might not even put a flag on the miniature itself and use different coloured bases instead to denote sides, considering how often ships traded hands.

Or, if the goal is to provide miniatures that can be distinguished by their paint job and details, I'd probably want 'em a bit bigger. Considering how games are typically one or two ships per player, maybe first-rates could have been in mega-packs like the Tantive IV for X-Wing (http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_news.asp?eidn=4663), complete with a jumbo-sized maneuver deck.

But it's easy to throw ideas around from the sidelines. Gotta give 'em respect for running a successful kickstarter and delivering some cool products.

[Devsdoc]

(although I think most of those wargamers were out the doors with the 1:1000 scale, if not before).

I was one of "were out the door"

Kenneth,
you are so right. Add the "Napoleon" card :wink:. If you had a "Napoleon Card" for the French Fleet" on playing this card all French ships spring a leak and take 2 turns to load the guns (He has taken the best gunners for the army)
Be Safe
Rory

[David Manley]

I find it interesting that players in a number of game systems are formalising "traits" and "abilities" which effectively cover what traditional (read - "long in the tooth") wargamers have used for just about always as scenario specific rules, national characteristics, command modifiers, etc. X Wing take sit to the extreme I think with all sorts of character abilities that have you scratching your head as to how they "work" IRL (or what passes for real in a fictional setting)

[Diamondback]

David, this is part of why when I've proposed the (admittedly slightly gamey, but we DO need a little more differentiation between ships on the same sculpt and reason to choose one over another) idea of ship-specific stats modifications or unique abilities, I've always wanted some clear historical inspiration and justification for them.

Bonus point, little things like that also make the game a touch more educational for those who actually stop to read text rather than just strip it down and Munchkin the numbers.

[Warspite]

kind of related the designer leaked this on BGG http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x440/Azrael_2011/687474703a2f2f7777772e6172657367616d65732e65752f77702f77702d636f6e74656e742f75706c6f6164732f323031352f30312f343230785f56696_zps5ed7a6fd.jpeg (http://s1181.photobucket.com/user/Azrael_2011/media/687474703a2f2f7777772e6172657367616d65732e65752f77702f77702d636f6e74656e742f75706c6f6164732f323031352f30312f343230785f56696_zps5ed7a6fd.jpeg.html)

[Comte de Brueys]

Boney on a ship?

Not really. :wink:

The captain & crew ability cards are the best they can do without disturbing the abilities of the single ship classes too much.

A frigate is a frigate and has under equal conditions no chance versus a 3rd rate. (Except the name of the frigate is USS Cosnstitution. :wink:)



You will not find in SOG what you like at X-Wing.

In SoG the advantages are wind direction, starting positions, right moment for the salvo (with high & special damage) and the maneuver abilities of a gamer that decides a game.

Under this perfect conditions a frigate with a Nelson on board can beat a SoL with Boney as captain.

But you can't compare apples with pears. :cheezy:

[Warspite]

Boney on a ship?

Not really. :wink:

The captain & crew ability cards are the best they can do without disturbing the abilities of the single ship classes too much.

A frigate is a frigate and has under equal conditions no chance versus a 3rd rate. (Except the name of the frigate is USS Cosnstitution. :wink:)



You will not find in SOG what you like at X-Wing.

In SoG the advantages are wind direction, starting positions, right moment for the salvo (with high & special damage) and the maneuver abilities of a gamer that decides a game.

Under this perfect conditions a frigate with a Nelson on board can beat a SoL with Boney as captain.

But you can't compare apples with pears. :cheezy:

nobody said boney captaining a ship just like the emperor doesn't pilot a tiefighter, it would be a card representing the objectives napoleon wants(ex battle of the nile, what did Napoleon hope to gain with the fleet there)...I found this with war at sea (axis and allies) as well that fictional games are more historical then historical games because wargames are much too rigid in their thinking which leads to a sometimes shallower game.

[Comte de Brueys]

You won an Anchorage fullquote price. :wink:

So what would change a Napoleon strategy card for a SoG game?

For example for such a game:

http://www.sailsofglory.org/showthread.php?2548-quot-The-Lineup-quot-by-7eat51-at-Origins-2014

For myself I found that SoG has a huge tactical depth. Never played a game with all optional rules, but with standart rules and a few other options you are very busy in commanding a single ship. Don't know if a strategy card would change much.

Maybe houserules are more helpful, like: "All non RN ships need two turns to reload a broadside."




...and I'm shure that Senator Palpatine was able to fly a Tie-Fighter.

[Warspite]

You won an Anchorage fullquote price. :wink:

So what would change a Napoleon strategy card for a SoG game?

For example for such a game:

http://www.sailsofglory.org/showthread.php?2548-quot-The-Lineup-quot-by-7eat51-at-Origins-2014

For myself I found that SoG has a huge tactical depth. Never played a game with all optional rules, but with standart rules and a few other options you are very busy in commanding a single ship. Don't know if a strategy card would change much.

Maybe houserules are more helpful, like: "All non RN ships need two turns to reload a broadside."




...and I'm shure that Senator Palpatine was able to fly a Tie-Fighter.

Napoleon used the fleet to support his landings/land invasions , so IMO maybe the introduction of a landing mechanic or a defensive posture to protect a landing....just something historical and fun that could add variety to gameplay. Wouldn't see play every match but gives you the option to play the game with a different objective in mind.

[7eat51]

Jason, please write a scenario for the solo campaign. Scenario rules can customize a given session, and can address your idea of objectives. Also, if you have ideas for additional Captain Abilities, we would be happy to see them and possibly incorporate them.

[Warspite]

I am not into solo play but if I come up with anything I will try and contribute, I am still musing with different victory conditions and objectives I would like to see.

[stuh42asl]

I am not very good at graphics stuff, but in addition to Nelson and Howe, I think admiral cards for the French , British, Spanish American,Dutch etc would be a good addition.
Especially for larger games.

[Warspite]

I am not very good at graphics stuff, but in addition to Nelson and Howe, I think admiral cards for the French , British, Spanish American,Dutch etc would be a good addition.
Especially for larger games.

I am not good with card graphics either so this is what im going to do

http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x440/Azrael_2011/pic1988941_md_zps7pt7qxbk.jpg (http://s1181.photobucket.com/user/Azrael_2011/media/pic1988941_md_zps7pt7qxbk.jpg.html)

Block games I think are good territory for using as land forces to integrate into SOG so I am going to use the existing napoleon ones to represent as the characters/armies of the ground forces.

[Berthier]

Jason has a point in as much naval battles and campaigns did not live in isolation to the wider political dimension of the Napoleonic wars. A "Napoleon" card to me could represent a scenario objective..eg: protect the landing beaches from British interference for 10 turns...thus this is a victory condition. It could be tweaked by adding...do so without loosing more than 30% of your SOL's. etc

Whether you need a Napoleon card to implement this is somewhat mute, I would think of the card as a strategic or operational directive to the fleet commander. The British commander may have a directive stating, prevent the landing of enemy forces within x turns by breaking through the enemies fleet lines and bombarding the shore for two turns. There are many possibilities.

[NimitsTexan]

I think it's a very interesting question. There are several dimension--first, the business trade-offs, second what is possible within the SGN system as it is, and third whether the SGN system could be tweaked to allow more options without losing its soul.

In general I think I agree with you. I've generally made my view known, that I think SGN should have embraced its "gameyness" and hobby potential a bit more, to allow things like a fleet-building dimension, greater incentives to collect, etc. Tastefully, within reason, but a bit more than what it is now. I think I'm very much in the minority on this board, but that is my perspective.

How much of SGN is the designers' preferences, and how much is market calculation is hard to say. It seems to me that Ares might have been trying to make the game more palatable to the traditional miniatures wargaming crowd, by making all the ships very similar and avoiding anything that some might construe as gimmicky (although I think most of those wargamers were out the doors with the 1:1000 scale, if not before). Anyway maybe that wasn't it.



I rather agree. At the very least, I would have preferred a solid set of historical (and/or semi-historical) scenarios release with the game, as well as full fledged fleet building rules (and materials) and victory conditions, and the promise of a campaign system. Not that I would likely ever play in one, but I would have even preferred some official "tournament" rules and standards. Probably because I come to SOG more as a board game guy than a true miniature gamer, I find the "here are some miniatures, figure out what to do with them" approach somewhat unappealing, even annoying. For example, yes, we have a points list, but that list is darned awkward to actually build a fleet with, and it does not provide any objectives or victory conditions besides total elimination of the other side (often not the case in actual naval engagements). So far, I am staying interested because, lets face it, the ship miniatures are awesome (again, at least for a guy that has mostly done board games), and it provides the best way to relive my Hornblower/Aubrey/Nelson/Decatur fantasies. But I can also see myself losing interest, as far as purchasing new ships goes, once USS Constitution is released. I already feel like, given the scale of the game, without any compelling scenarios, campaigns, or fleet building rules, there is little reason to pick up the first rates.

I know it is a totally different game system and target audience, and I certainly do not think everything about it would be appropriate in SoG, but I do look at the objective mechanic in FFGs Armada or the campaigns and epic play they have added for X-Wing, and wish Ares would do something similar for SoG.