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View Full Version : Do we need a card based game version of Sails of Glory?



Comte de Brueys
01-22-2012, 03:01
Everybody is talking about the SoG miniature starter set.

Will there be a card based game version first?

Do we need a card based game version?

Comte de Brueys
01-22-2012, 03:05
I think we can hire more sailors, if there is a card based game version, too.

Less expensive and a good opportunity for card boosters.

The Royal Hajj
01-22-2012, 03:11
Well, Ares/Andrea has already stated that there will not be a card version.

David Manley
01-22-2012, 04:53
Indeed they have, but I wonder how long that will last for? There quite a few "card only" players of Wow out there. A "card only" set of SGN at a later date would probably be well worth considering, especially as it may attract players who already have collections of ships and who don't need/want the Ares minis.

The Royal Hajj
01-22-2012, 05:28
Only time will tell... but I don't see it happening. WoW was only a modestly successful game until the minis came out... then it exploded once the minis finally hit the shelves. I think it's a good business decision not to do a card only set. While it might put off some people that already have large collections of ships, if the rules set is good enough and popular enough, they will still buy into it. It's just the way gamers are! lol

Mark Barker
01-22-2012, 10:23
WoW was only a modestly successful game until the minis came out... then it exploded once the minis finally hit the shelves.

I agree, in the current economic climate it will all come down to the price of the packs and quality of the miniatures. The first generation WoW minis were very reasonably priced, so that I did not need permission from the other half for a pack or two. Prices have increased steeply so that they now need negotiation !

Looking forward to seeing what sort of painting quality can be achieved using mass production techniques. My painting rate of 1 ship per week if I really push it is unlikely to be economically viable :)

Mark Barker
The Inshore Squadron

David Manley
01-22-2012, 12:03
While it might put off some people that already have large collections of ships, if the rules set is good enough and popular enough, they will still buy into it. It's just the way gamers are! lol

I guess it depends on how the finished product "works". If the rules gain a good reputation and an established gamer can buy a starter set for 30-40 and get everything they need to play with whatever models they have then it may be attractive to players of that ilk. If it fails on either then it won't. That said, I'm quite hopeful that both conditions will be satisfied :) (but still think a "cards only" version would be worth thinking about at some point in the future)

Berthier
01-22-2012, 23:11
Cards only version would be simple to implement. I suggest you all buy the starters and send me you unwanted minis. You get "card only" I get...well I get all the minis. Everyone's happy! :cool:

Coog
01-23-2012, 17:18
The bad thing about "miniatures only" would be if they turn out miniatures at the same rate they have for WoW, you could be waiting a long, long time for a decent variety of ships. If they did cards they could produce a greater variety of ships to use with cards until miniatures were produced, like WoW. But they probably realize that other brands of miniatures would be used if you had cards for them, and possibly undercut their sales. After all they are it for the money, not for the convenience of the consumer.

The Royal Hajj
01-24-2012, 02:11
But they probably realize that other brands of miniatures would be used if you had cards for them, and possibly undercut their sales. After all they are it for the money, not for the convenience of the consumer.

And trust me, they do! It is also a viable concern and strategy for them.



I guess it depends on how the finished product "works". If the rules gain a good reputation and an established gamer can buy a starter set for 30-40 and get everything they need to play with whatever models they have then it may be attractive to players of that ilk. If it fails on either then it won't. That said, I'm quite hopeful that both conditions will be satisfied :) (but still think a "cards only" version would be worth thinking about at some point in the future)

And if the rules are not strong enough to stand on their own, then the gamers with the per-existing ship collections will not really care!

Berthier
01-24-2012, 06:09
Well WOG has been swamped by alternate aircraft suppliers (SRAM, Shapeways, reverisco etc etc)- what is interesting is that
1) WOG/W minis are very fine little models at a good price and continue to be in demand for the scouts
2) Selection of models to manufacture is make or break. The scouts all seemed to sell quite well, the bombers did not appear to (you can still pick up most of them even now pretty cheaply). The issue seems to be, how many bombers could you use anyway in a battle (1 maybe 2, 3 in multiplay) whereas you could easily handle scouts. Secondly, the bombers probably aren't as much fun to fly, instead they would benefit from using them in solitaire scenarios and put in place some "auto pilot rules". The release of their next set is again bombers but at least only 2 of each not 3 models but they are pricey because they are BIG.
3) The plethora of after market planes has actually stimulated interest in the system..look at the size of the forum on 3D printing over on the WOG site...Plus, the 3d printing can be produced, fast, very very fast. Demand for an aircraft design can see it appear in a week or two. Yes you have to paint them (and that isn't easy with the material they are made from) but the variety is mind boggling. Ares cannot hope to compete with that nor should they try. The 3D printing models are not as "nice" as the original minis but they allow the game system to have a life of it's own meaning any official release is going to be taken up by a large cohort of supporters even if they only appear once or twice a year.


So to ships...they need to produce what people will be able to easily play with in numerous scenarios and they need to be not expensive but not necessarily cheap. So by ease of play I mean, 74's and frigates, sloops...there are lots of actions these can be used in whereas if you have a 120gunner, moving like a snail and only usuable in maybe four or five battles what's the point of releasing a set of them? Anyine who wants a 120SOL can get them "after market" from GHQ etc, whereas attractive 74's and below, well painted would sell at much faster rate.

Will we see 3d printed ships? Probably...the aircraft production is still not without it's problems in consistent quality (I received an order of 30 nearly unusable planes which are being re-made now)- when they are good they are "pretty good" when they are bad though they are truly awful. I think the technology is going to improve dramatically and quickly and in maybe two years they will be able to make beautiful, accurate 3d models consistently. The possibility exists, at least in my mind which has it moments and absolutely no foundation upon which to make this claim, that perhaps they could produce 3d printed models in multi-colours removing the need to paint...you read it here first!!! ;)

The Royal Hajj
01-24-2012, 07:10
Yes, Shapeways and Skytrex have taken a big bite out future sales for Ares... they know this and are tracking it and doing what little they can about it. Adding a card only version of this new game only enables their player base to spend their money else where. It's not a good business plan ;)

David Manley
01-24-2012, 10:56
Has Shapeways affected potential Ares sales? Sad to say it but probably yes - and as a direct result of my interaction with the Wings of war Aerodrome. I was very excited about WGF Series 5 being released, but thinking about it a bit more rationally I realised that I have decent examples of all the models in that release (I'm lucky that, IMHO, I'm a pretty decent painter and I think my offerings stand up very well against the paint jobs on the official minis), I have lots of manoeuvre decks from the official expansion sets (but I guess I could have made them from the card decks in the forum files area) and I have flight stands from Herr Oberst and, when available, some extra flight pegs (I'm looking at a bag's worth to use with Her Oberst's bases). So I can't really justify spending a hundred quid or so on models that would just duplicate what I have already.

However, looking at it another way the availability of models and the interaction through the forum has stimulated my interest in purchasing the card decks in the expansion packs and the boxed sets, so from that perspective, had Ares been producing those, I would have boosted their income that way. So, assuming the rules work OK and assuming I would need extra cards, decks, chits etc. to use more ships than were supplied in the starter set I would be far more inclined to shell out on card decks and other games material to use with my existing models than shell out 10-20 for a single set of manoeuvre cards to go with a model that duplicates what I already have.

So, I guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't really think a "card only" version would hurt sales and could in fact promote them. Which might be a bit of a surprise after what I said about Series 5 But here's my reasoning. Prices of models are likely to be not insignificant and so unattractive to those with existing collections. however, they will hopefully be pitched at a level where, if you don't have any ships, the benefit of getting a "ready to run" model will make them attractive - in short if you have decent toys already you are probably unlikely to buy into the game if its minis only, but if you don't you will. Its not the same as the Shapeways and Ares situation; 1/144 aerial wargaming has been supported by some lead/pewter models in the past but WoW really kick-started interest in the scale and the Shapeways producers have come along to fill the void left by the inept Nexus production schedule; but as far as 1/1200 age of sail models are concerned the scale has been alive and well for decades; there are many, many naval wargamers with many, many ships, and there are quite a few existing ranges of extremely good models available (mainly Langton and GHQ). So, if a card-only version is available then players with existing collections are more likely to join in, and those without are still likely to be attracted for the reasons that saw an increase in interest when WOW expanded into models. I see them as two different markets for variants of the same product.

Anyway, from the way things are shaping up I'll probably mostly be playing in 1/450 anyway :)

David Manley
01-24-2012, 11:01
and doing what little they can about it.

Out of interest, apart from ramping up an accelerated production schedule, cutting prices, buying off the Colonel's production of home-produced flight stands, hitting Max Headroom with an IP infringement for producing cards, shutting down Zoe and the "committee's" work in producing stats (and arranging for Colinwe and Kampflieger and/or the shapeways facility to have a little "accident") what can they really do?

The Royal Hajj
01-29-2012, 00:30
Really not much. Nexus/Ares and Andrea have been very supportive of fan based growth of their game and I believe they will continue this view with the new game as well. They recognize that it only promotes their brand. I think they have already taken the biggest step, and that is to decide not to offere this game as a card only version.

I think we all to often forget that Wings of Glory and soon to be Sails of Glory are not really wargames in the traditional sense. They are more table top board games. And as such, they are not so worried about picking up the hard core sail players out there... after all, they are actually a very small part of the market Ares hopes to capture with this new game.

David Manley
01-29-2012, 03:04
I think they have already taken the biggest step, and that is to decide not to offer this game as a card only version.

I don't see how that helps. All it does is discourages a potential revenue stream, and I don't just mean established AoS gamers but also those on restricted incomes. Lets just say that I think its an "interesting" idea, and that I'm fairly confident we'll see card-only variants on sale in the fullness of time.

Cpt Kangaroo
01-31-2012, 10:49
My own take on this subject is that I am a collector first and I fully expect the finished product to be very desirable.

In short, I would embrace either system, be it cards or models.

It seems like it took forever for me to amass a fleet to replicate some of the larger battles.

I am very loyal to this hobby and look to support anyone who provides 'New Toys' for me.

The alternative is that I have to make my own and that isn't nearly as much fun from a gaming perspective.

I am afraid I am one off those who will systematically replace my existing 100+ 1/1200's to the new product, mainly for uniformity.

I know the quality will at least exceed my own ability.

That's my two bits worth anyway.

Killick
03-27-2012, 00:44
I like mins and and I like the quality of ARES mins. I do not buy metal models as I cannot put the bloody things together. I have a few shapeways as I am into the 1916 and there are quite a few mins that period I do not belive they will ever produce, but if they do I will replace my my shapeways mins for Ares mins.

Capt P
03-28-2012, 18:04
I think cards and the minis is the way to go. I am not as good as you guys in building the type of ships you do.

Churruca
03-29-2012, 08:40
I think card version is needed; almost 70% of my home "air battles" with WoW are card equipped. Olny rich men can afford a truly complete mini models collection. I'm very interested in historic recreation, so I can't purchase all the flying machines in miniatures. I have got 2 Spits, 2 Bf109, 2 Wildcat, 2 Zero, 1 Stuka, 1 Val, 1 hurricane, 1 D520. I will buy new miniatures, but it's too expensive (and they will not make) all the warbirds.

So, the same thing is valid for Sails of Glory, I'm afraid.

Jack Aubrey
01-18-2013, 03:07
Please card and minis. The cards can be taken with on a yourney for example..

Churruca
01-18-2013, 04:29
Please card and minis. The cards can be taken with on a yourney for example..

Good point, Aubrey.

7eat51
01-18-2013, 17:04
I would appreciate having both. The main concern for me, however, is the company's sustainability. I am just getting back into gaming. Unfortunately, many of the systems I am interested in seemed to stop producing just when I was starting to enter, e.g. Axis and Allies minis. I started to build a collection only to find the retail market dry up, and now the cost from previous owners through ebay, etc. is becoming prohibitive. If minis only is the only way the company will be able to create, sustain, and grow this game, I am supportive. If they can find a way to do it with cards also, I am ecstatic. Since I never bought ice-cream, though, for the cherry on top, I will be happy with just the ice-cream.

pward
04-14-2013, 14:02
Cards alone, without the models would not be a big draw.

Churruca
04-15-2013, 00:32
Yesterday I was playing with my cousin WoG and in spite I have a good pack of minis, we played cards because... It's easier!
Easier to move, easier to put one above another one...
I think card version is a good option and much cheaper -a lot of people is having big money problems nowadays- than mini games. And, If people try the cheaper version and they lie it, always can purchase minis to upgrade game level.

Cmmdre
04-15-2013, 05:53
I would appreciate having both. The main concern for me, however, is the company's sustainability. I am just getting back into gaming. Unfortunately, many of the systems I am interested in seemed to stop producing just when I was starting to enter, e.g. Axis and Allies minis. I started to build a collection only to find the retail market dry up, and now the cost from previous owners through ebay, etc. is becoming prohibitive. If minis only is the only way the company will be able to create, sustain, and grow this game, I am supportive. If they can find a way to do it with cards also, I am ecstatic. Since I never bought ice-cream, though, for the cherry on top, I will be happy with just the ice-cream.

You scream, I scream we all scream for ice cream. The problem is, as you have pointed out Eric, eating it before it melts. Lets pray that Ares doesn't implode as so many others have.

daledavis67
04-15-2013, 06:32
@Berthier

You said:The possibility exists, at least in my mind which has it moments and absolutely no foundation upon which to make this claim, that perhaps they could produce 3d printed models in multi-colours removing the need to paint...you read it here first!!! ;)

Check out Objet. It's an Israeli 3D printer company that makes machines that produce multi-color models as single print jobs. Sorry you weren't first:sly:

Beowulf03809
04-15-2013, 06:49
Ok...coming from the perspective of not having played WoG so please shine light were I'm missing something. And I know there's some negative vibes around for the XWing mini game but that's the only other system I'm aware of with a similar mechanic. So...

In XWing each mini is produced only once. All XWings look the same regardless of being from the starter or add on pack. This goes for all the fighters. Only the player card ("Ship Log") and the little card that goes on the mini's base distinguish if you're using a generic Rookie Pilot or one of the named Heroes (Wedge, Luke, Darth, etc.). In all cases the ships themselves have absolutely no differences in stats between any other ship of the same type. All XWings are exactly the same maneuverability, firepower, shields, etc. The pilot brings along better skill (determines movement and shooting initiative) and in many cases special rules that can have a big impact on tactics. You can also spend points on upgrading your ships. Because of this, they package 3 to 4 double-sided player cards with each ship allowing you to use that ship in up to eight different ways even before buying upgrades.

Similarly, I think Ares made a HUGE leap forward when the Ship Logs went double-sided. There is probably very little variation between any ships of a specific class. I would imagine all Amazon class frigates are going to play pretty much the same. For that matter, is there much difference in the basic stats of a 32-gun Amazon compared to a 32‐gun Concorde? And since it doesn't seem likely that players will have too many of a particular ship class on the board due to the detail and complexity in controlling each ship, how many models of a specific class of Frigate do we really need?

Now, with WGF there was variety in how some pilots painted their planes. In such cases, I can see where players would want a number of scouts, each painted to represent the specific pilot they are wanting to play. Not everyone can afford to do so, or even have interest, but for many it's pretty exciting. That's a market for additional planes. But in SOG, aren't most ships of the same class in a navy painted pretty much the same, especially at this scale?

Without having the rules and Ship Logs to reference, I would venture to guess that the differences between the ships of a particular class is going to be pretty minimal. The Captain and Crew decks will probably be where the real variety comes from. So once I have 2-3 of most ships I'm not going to buy more. I WOULD however want 'expansions' of more Ship Logs (and the little card that goes under the model) and Captain/Crew decks to use my existing models in more ways. I think this would be a good market for Ares to get into before someone else does and it would be a lot more economical to produce the needed 'paper' contents of the Ship Expansion Packs only. Put a small variety of unique Ship Logs/base cards in there (and maybe a few appropriate Captain/Crew cards) but no model or maneuver deck. and sell it for maybe $10. Now for $25 total ($15 model + $10 expansion) I can use my Amazon Frigate as any of the 18 British ships of that class. Either include some captured versions to represent any that were used in the French fleet, for example, or make a separate expansion to represent those. Make it even more interesting by including a small Scenario book representing a few of the ships in the expansion in

I, and probably many others, won't buy too many more Amazon models, if any, after we're getting one in the Starter, one KS Exclusive and one in Wave 1. But I WOULD like to be able to play those models as a greater variety of official ships and I'm sure someone will fill that interest. Hopefully Ares.

7eat51
04-15-2013, 07:28
In addition to your comments Lawrence, folks might supplement ships with models from other lines.

I, for one, would like additional cards for the reason(s) you mentioned, as well as ease of travel when going on trips; it would be nice to play SoG in addition to WGF. With airfare baggage costs, I doubt I would bring minis.

Berthier
04-15-2013, 08:13
@Berthier

You said:The possibility exists, at least in my mind which has it moments and absolutely no foundation upon which to make this claim, that perhaps they could produce 3d printed models in multi-colours removing the need to paint...you read it here first!!! ;)

Check out Objet. It's an Israeli 3D printer company that makes machines that produce multi-color models as single print jobs. Sorry you weren't first:sly:

Hey Eric remember I said that over a year ago, that must be where thy got he idea from! Time to sue for infringement on my IP :clap: