Pirates of Glory?

[greenalfonzo]

I was thinking about how many would like to see pirate ships enter the game at some point. During Napoleanic times, of course, the classic Caribbean pirates were pretty much over, so releasing a couple ships to go with the current game would play a bit off, but certainly not out of the question. A classic East Indiamen would be a welcome addition to the game, I'm sure.

It seems like the thing to do would be to go with an entirely new box set based around Pirates in the same layout as the current Napoleanic one. You do a pirate ship, a warship, and a couple of galleons or East Indiamen. Rewrite the rules to fit a slightly different style of play and different objectives, including gathering and moving treasure around. Maybe a bit more adventurous and a bit more friendly for family game night. Take a hard look at the rules to the old Wizkids Pirates of the Spanish Main collectible card game for ideas - it's still a great game. With a new Pirates of the Caribbean coming out soon, this would also be great way to cash in and capture some of that marketing and publicity.

Separating the Napoleanic wargame with the pirate adventure game would be good for expanding the market. The ships could be crossed over, of course, and their stats would allow you to play them under either rules, but there would be a definite distinction between the two rule sets in the mechanics of how you play, and the flavor of the game.

:Arrrr:

[Nightmoss]

I was thinking about how many would like to see pirate ships enter the game at some point. During Napoleanic times, of course, the classic Caribbean pirates were pretty much over, so releasing a couple ships to go with the current game would play a bit off, but certainly not out of the question. A classic East Indiamen would be a welcome addition to the game, I'm sure.

It seems like the thing to do would be to go with an entirely new box set based around Pirates in the same layout as the current Napoleanic one. You do a pirate ship, a warship, and a couple of galleons or East Indiamen. Rewrite the rules to fit a slightly different style of play and different objectives, including gathering and moving treasure around. Maybe a bit more adventurous and a bit more friendly for family game night. Take a hard look at the rules to the old Wizkids Pirates of the Spanish Main collectible card game for ideas - it's still a great game. With a new Pirates of the Caribbean coming out soon, this would also be great way to cash in and capture some of that marketing and publicity.

Separating the Napoleanic wargame with the pirate adventure game would be good for expanding the market. The ships could be crossed over, of course, and their stats would allow you to play them under either rules, but there would be a definite distinction between the two rule sets in the mechanics of how you play, and the flavor of the game.

:Arrrr:

It has been discussed here on several occasions. Ares themselves have indicated they would like to do "historic" pirates (mentioned on their Facebook page), but when that would occur no one can say. Seems likely they'll stay focused on the Napoleonic Age of Sail for the near future.

I've been hoping they'd do a separate Kickstarter for a "Pirate" expansion, but they chose Conan instead!? :shock:

[Naharaht]

Welcome to the Anchorage, Kev. As Jim said, there will probably be a pirate expansion in a few years time.

[David Manley]

It would be interesting to see how they could do this in a manner that still made them money. The choice of ships would be interesting to ensure that they achieved a good use of each sculpt. At the moment they can (for example) produce a frigate and typically badge it as six different ships which they can be fairly certain will sell well (especially when repaint junkies are brought into the equation). The rather more individual nature of pirate ships would make that harder to achieve, and less product options (and hence sales) from an individual sculpt would be harder to achieve economically unless there was some clever thought behind it.

[fredmiracle]

It would be interesting to see how they could do this in a manner that still made them money. The choice of ships would be interesting to ensure that they achieved a good use of each sculpt. At the moment they can (for example) produce a frigate and typically badge it as six different ships which they can be fairly certain will sell well (especially when repaint junkies are brought into the equation). The rather more individual nature of pirate ships would make that harder to achieve, and less product options (and hence sales) from an individual sculpt would be harder to achieve economically unless there was some clever thought behind it.

It does seem a tough nut to crack. People seem to want big tough pirate ships that can go toe-to-toe with at least the top-tier frigates. But from what I've seen on the site, that doesn't seem to match the historical reality (?)

If they took one of each frigate model, and painted it a cool black motif with a jolly roger, they would apparently sell quite a few, but then that's history out the window...

[Nightmoss]

It would be interesting to see how they could do this in a manner that still made them money. The choice of ships would be interesting to ensure that they achieved a good use of each sculpt. At the moment they can (for example) produce a frigate and typically badge it as six different ships which they can be fairly certain will sell well (especially when repaint junkies are brought into the equation). The rather more individual nature of pirate ships would make that harder to achieve, and less product options (and hence sales) from an individual sculpt would be harder to achieve economically unless there was some clever thought behind it.

I'd be willing to bet you and some others here could get this all figured out for Ares. Actual sales and profit is another question?

Btw, I see you'll hit 2,000 posts in one more hit. Congratulations!

[Union Jack]

1999, a very good year. Finished my 24 years (well 23 and 234 days) service for Her Majesty.

[7eat51]

One way of handling pirate rules is through captain and crew cards.

The question of historical accurateness is interesting. If ahistorical pirate ships are demanded, it could be worth Ares' effort to produce such ships. Given their unique painting schemes, however, I do not know how many duplicates players would buy.

[greenalfonzo]

I just don't think a historic expansion that strictly follows the existing rules would be a great sell. Pirate gaming is pretty different from historical naval gaming, I think. That's why I think you make the ships and bases etc. compatible with the existing game, but provide some simpler, faster rules for a lighter game and broader audience, like those old Wizkids rules, and do crew cards as variables, and a treasure collection and chase aspect as well.

I have found Wings of Glory brings in a bigger audience than SOG. WOG has a simpler game play, and colorful miniatures and the romance associated with the knights of the air. Using pirates to bring some of that flair, romance, and adventure to the world of SOG would be smart. I don't know if you just repurpose Nap models, or go truly historic with new models based on ships from the 1600s. Ideally, the Pirate element, combined with detailed models and a fast and fun gameplay would sell well enough to cover the cost of new molds. Is there a bigger market for pirate gaming than historic Napoleanic gaming? I think probably so.

[7eat51]

I think the non-advanced SoG rules play pretty quickly. Without crew actions, boarding, etc., you basically have a move and shoot game. When we played at Origins, we were able to teach such a rule set in minutes, and first time players got the hang of the system after a few turns; we then added ammo choice and sail settings mid-game without any problem. I think picking a subset of the existing rules could accommodate a fast and fun, less-than-historically accurate, version of the game.

We have had discussions about using sea monsters and other devices in various threads, all geared toward lighthearted games that, potentially, could draw in a larger crowd. On Monday, I am running an SoG game at our FLGS. Depending on time and the players assembled, I will do a second non-historically oriented game.

[csadn]

Remember: Most pirate ships started life as commercial vessels -- schooners; brigs; sloops; that sort of thing. They didn't become "pirate ships" until some of the Brethren put them to that use; and typically, the pirates would use the ships, until they wore out, then "trade up" (or down) as required. So, Ares could easily create a line of "merchant ships", each of which is backprinted with a pirate motif, and use the same ships as both predator and prey.

[David Manley]

It certainly would be a good reason for Ares to crack on with the merchies that were promised many months ago.

[Naharaht]

Remember: Most pirate ships started life as commercial vessels -- schooners; brigs; sloops; that sort of thing. They didn't become "pirate ships" until some of the Brethren put them to that use; and typically, the pirates would use the ships, until they wore out, then "trade up" (or down) as required. So, Ares could easily create a line of "merchant ships", each of which is backprinted with a pirate motif, and use the same ships as both predator and prey.

Those are very good points and since pirate ships would go around 'in disguise', having an incorrect national flag would not matter.

Boarding actions will be essential for pirate encounters. There is a thread in the 'House Rules' section discussing how 'prize crews' might be included in the game.
http://www.sailsofglory.org/showthread.php?2776-Prize-crews

[fredmiracle]

What people really want is not a back printed card for some merchie though. They want a really cool looking ship with a sinister paint scheme and a massive Jolly Rodger. Plus tough stats to stand up to warships. At least that's my impression

[Gunner]

I'm not well read on pirate actions. Are there many pirate victories against French, Spanish or English ships of war? The little I've read show that pirate's avoided ships of war like the plague.

[csadn]

What people really want is not a back printed card for some merchie though. They want a really cool looking ship with a sinister paint scheme and a massive Jolly Rodger. Plus tough stats to stand up to warships. At least that's my impression

That's just it -- most of the "cool-looking ships" *were* originally merchants; not every cargo-hauler was an East Indiaman. As to paint-work, that's mostly Whollyweird codswallop.


I'm not well read on pirate actions. Are there many pirate victories against French, Spanish or English ships of war? The little I've read show that pirate's avoided ships of war like the plague.

No -- and in fact, if you look up "_Bauden_ vs. _Trompeuse_", the pirates didn't always win against *merchants*....

There's no percentage in a fight -- only in plunder. ;)

[Bolithio]

Beyond the cliche' style, piracy is a matter of perspective right? Essentially the SOG genre is 'legal' piracy vrs the other countries, "to burn harass or take prize" etc...

[Diamondback]

Like I said in another thread, we already have a quasi-pirate in official releases--1779 Thorn was a licensed Privateer, not an actual "Navy-owned" warship.

You wanna know what real pirate ships would look like in SGN? Start there. Even the biggest, Queen Anne's Revenge and a handful similar, probably clocks in only about equivalent to a 32.

Do we want Fact or Fantasy? Hard decision that's gotta be made--if Ares goes Fantasy like POTC without clearly noting it as such they cheese off the Fact-minded historical players, go Fact and they cheese off the Mickey Mouse Club primed on POTC.

[Nightmoss]

Like I said in another thread, we already have a quasi-pirate in official releases--1779 Thorn was a licensed Privateer, not an actual "Navy-owned" warship.

You wanna know what real pirate ships would look like in SGN? Start there. Even the biggest, Queen Anne's Revenge and a handful similar, probably clocks in only about equivalent to a 32.

Do we want Fact or Fantasy? Hard decision that's gotta be made--if Ares goes Fantasy like POTC without clearly noting it as such they cheese off the Fact-minded historical players, go Fact and they cheese off the Mickey Mouse Club primed on POTC.

Well, a third option would be to create their own fantasy Pirate world setting where they could create whatever they wanted. Using fact to create ships that sail appropriately, but fiction to instill and tell a story that's fun for everyone. In this sense it's very much going to be a Hollywood style game.

Would I enjoy sailing a pirate ship the size of the Santisima Trinidad against all comers (other pirates and the forces of law etc., etc.). Hell, yes! :happy:

[7eat51]

Do we want Fact or Fantasy? Hard decision that's gotta be made--if Ares goes Fantasy like POTC without clearly noting it as such they cheese off the Fact-minded historical players, go Fact and they cheese off the Mickey Mouse Club primed on POTC.

One thing we want is solvency and continually released ships. If Ares can expand sales and customer base with periodic ahistorical offerings, so be it. In most of the games I have run, once the game begins, people do not seem very concerned about history as much as beating the other side. Only in the beginning when laying out the scenario does history seem to play a part in the event. I realize I have not played much with AoS aficionados, but my prospective audience leans heavily toward general gamers. I will use anything that gets them to the table.

[David Manley]

See suggestion for a broad selection of models from a pair of sculpts in the other thread currently discussing pirates :happy:

[Diamondback]

If Ares wanted to do a Disney POTC Licensed game based on the SGN Engine, that could be a great profit-center and intro to the game (I personally wouldn't be inclined to buy in, IMO DPOTC Jumped the Shark long ago, but my mother might)--but I'd want it clearly noted that SoG: DPOTC ships were NOT for inter-operation with SoG: Napoleonic Wars despite using the same counters, mats etc.

[Pappy Liam]

Congradulations.

[Nightmoss]

Just as an illustration of how popular pirates are, and especially pirates in gaming, check out this Kickstarter Project from Cool Minis or Not! Eight days to go and they've already exceeded their initial pledge by a huge margin. A really huge margin!

I have to say once again that Ares is missing the boat, whether or not it's a Disney or historical version, on creating some form of SoG pirate expansion, sooner than later.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/coolminiornot/rum-and-bones

[David Manley]

Cute minis. About as much to do with pirates as Burger King has to do with a Michelin restaurant, but very cute :happy:

[Bligh]

I'm glad all my money has just been pledged to Keith for the next SoG release.:wink:
Rob.

[Horatio Nelson]

Just as an illustration of how popular pirates are, and especially pirates in gaming, check out this Kickstarter Project from Cool Minis or Not! Eight days to go and they've already exceeded their initial pledge by a huge margin. A really huge margin!

I have to say once again that Ares is missing the boat, whether or not it's a Disney or historical version, on creating some form of SoG pirate expansion, sooner than later.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/coolminiornot/rum-and-bones


I signed up for this piece of nonsense. Be interesting to see how it turns out.

[Nightmoss]

Cute minis. About as much to do with pirates as Burger King has to do with a Michelin restaurant, but very cute :happy:

Agreed. I expect those minis will show up in other gaming sessions as well. Ironically if you thought Disney went as far as you could with fantasy pirates this shows you otherwise. :wink:


I signed up for this piece of nonsense. Be interesting to see how it turns out.

Cool Mini or Not has a fairly good reputation on KS I believe and they certainly have come through with a number of KS games. At 760% funding it's definitely a go, but how the production bumps might challenge final receipt is always up in the air. They're quite up front with this aspect of the project in the Risks and Challenges Section.

I'm waffling on backing the game, but I really have limited space for new additions. I'd much rather back some Ares SoG pirate expansion to be honest. I have my eye on some other AoS games on top of that. :hmmm:

[greenalfonzo]

Well, cool minis or not, Pirates are more popular than historic naval gaming. It is foolish not to use the pop culture awareness of the appearance of Age of Sail ships - average person who sees one will invariably describe it as a 'Pirate Ship' - to expand the game.

Just pep up the rules with some fun treasure hunting aspects and get a box out there!

[David Manley]

Well, cool minis or not, Pirates are more popular than historic naval gaming

More eye catching maybe, but I wouldn't say more popular, at least from a gaming perspective. I know far and away more wargamers who are into "historical" (i.e. straight naval) rather than pirate gaming.

[greenalfonzo]

More eye catching maybe, but I wouldn't say more popular, at least from a gaming perspective. I know far and away more wargamers who are into "historical" (i.e. straight naval) rather than pirate gaming.

Yeah, I didn't really mean among the current miniature wargaming population, but rather if you polled the general game-buying public. There is a pretty large community of people more into board games, etc, that may not be turned on by the idea of wargaming, while seeing pirate-gaming as much more inviting and approachable.

[Kentop]

As a wargamer, I know I would be thrice damned if I bought that game. Frank Frazetta should sue CMON for copyright infringement. Cartoonish, over-the-top, steroid pumped fantasy characters are aimed directly at preteen boys. It would take three tots of rum to get me to play it.

[Naharaht]

I am not going to back 'Rum & Bones'.

[Nightmoss]

As a wargamer, I know I would be thrice damned if I bought that game. Frank Frazetta should sue CMON for copyright infringement. Cartoonish, over-the-top, steroid pumped fantasy characters are aimed directly at preteen boys. It would take three tots of rum to get me to play it.


I am not going to back 'Rum & Bones'.

My post wasn't meant to be a push for anyone backing this particular KS project. It was meant as another example of the popularity of pirates; in gaming or not, historical or ahistorical.

Coincidentally I was at my local game shop this afternoon and initial comments to me when I walked in concerned when the HMS Victory and USS Constitution would be arriving. That was followed up by someone bemoaning the fact that there were no 80 gun ships available as yet. I wasn't able to respond to the latter comment although I did tell them about the Spanish ships due in the 1st Wave reprinting.

I brought up Ares promise to do pirates at some point and while there was agreement this might be good I think the local gamers are all for the Constitution and other US ships, which isn't really surprising.

[DeRuyter]

Speaking of KS and miniatures I ran across this article on TMP. A blog by a sculptor with some KS red flags for backers and launchers:

http://johnnyborgcastings.blogspot.com/

[Nightmoss]

Speaking of KS and miniatures I ran across this article on TMP. A blog by a sculptor with some KS red flags for backers and launchers:

http://johnnyborgcastings.blogspot.com/

Interesting reading. Thanks for the link. I'm sure his remaining posts will cover many of the issues we've seen with Kickstarter projects and miniature production across the entire gaming industry.