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Arakus
09-16-2014, 04:35
Hello,

but i am a bit disappointed from Ares atm. because they give us much to less info about SGN.
Even in their upcoming list on their homepage is nothing for october and november for the game planned, no new releases and also no restock!

Maybe i am wrong but when there is no restock or new stuff planned to be released until next year then it looks like they abondened it.
There will be no new players attracted with such poor info politics and from the players base this game already has will some go on to other games.

Instead of writing of eventually making ww1 or ww2 things to the game on boardgeek they should add some stuff/info to the game they already released.

Sorry if i be a bit harsh but i am a bit upset atm. about this behavior.



Don't get me wrong, this community at anchorage is awesome.
Each one is helpful and the infos which are released here is great.
But this is a fan based support and nothing from the delvelopers at all.

Naharaht
09-16-2014, 08:11
Perhaps something will be announced for December release to take advantage of the Christmas market. They ought to re-release the Starter Set.

Arakus
09-16-2014, 08:13
Perhaps something will be announced for December release to take advantage of the Christmas market. They ought to re-release the Starter Set.

If a restock or new release of the starter set is the only stuff the announce for this year then its like a slap in the face of all fans of this game......

Nightmoss
09-16-2014, 09:20
We've been on 'informational' hold for quite some time. I suspect Ares is waiting for the Victory and Constitution pre-production items to arrive, or if they've already received them they haven't decided if they're acceptable or not? As for the restock of Wave 1 and Starter Sets I think those are on the way to the warehouse, but we already know from past experience that communication along those lines is mediocre at best.

It may also be that they're holding on all information until they've decided what to push out for Esen Spiel, which is October 16-19th this year?

Waiting is frustrating, but I've got other hobbies and projects to pass the time, fortunately.

Arakus
09-16-2014, 09:24
.....As for the restock of Wave 1 and Starter Sets I think those are on the way to the warehouse......

Look here:
http://www.aresgames.eu/upcoming-products

There is only wave 2 restock planned for the next months, no starter set or wave 1.
How will they sell stuff if they don't deliver some to the shops?

Nightmoss
09-16-2014, 09:29
Look here:
http://www.aresgames.eu/upcoming-products

There is only wave 2 restock planned for the next months, no starter set or wave 1.
How will they sell stuff if they don't deliver some to the shops?

You're correct on it being only Wave 2.
Actually, now that I think of it, the Starter Set is already in a second printing. I cannot guess what's going to happen to Wave 1 reprinting or another printing of the Starter Set if that's sold out again?

Arakus
09-16-2014, 09:33
Hmm, maybe i have a bad day and take it to serious atm.?

I should relax a bit, maybe modding a ship and look at the web tomorrow if there is something new. :happy:

7eat51
09-16-2014, 09:43
Jörg, I think you are part of a group of us who desire to see this game succeed. It is easy for us to become frustrated or anxious, especially when we don't see things happening and communication from Ares is infrequent. We might be in calm waters right now, but hopefully, fair winds are coming.

For those of us here, now is an especially good time to revisit and engage the solo rules and campaigns, sign up for a daily thread, etc. We have a lot to offer each other, so we can at least drink from that cup. When new ships arrive, we'll be in a better position to incorporate them.

By the way, Jörg, congratulations on your promotion. That was your 100th post. :salute: :beer:

Naharaht
09-16-2014, 12:13
Congratulations on your promotion, Jorg.

If Ares have decided to incorporate the 'Errata and Addenda' into a reprinted rulebook, that would delay the re-issue of the Starter Set.

Diamondback knows something about a Wave 3 but he is not at liberty to divulge it. Read the 'Second Wave Updates from Ares' thread.

Arakus
09-16-2014, 17:19
Congratulations on your promotion, Jorg.

Tanks a lot, didn't see that, i wish my 100. post would be a bit nicer.. :happy:


If Ares have decided to incorporate the 'Errata and Addenda' into a reprinted rulebook, that would delay the re-issue of the Starter Set.

Thats a point why they eventually delayed the starter set reprint. Maybe the first wave reprint is delayed bacause the mast breaking problem as the boxes must be enhanced.


Diamondback knows something about a Wave 3 but he is not at liberty to divulge it. Read the 'Second Wave Updates from Ares' thread.

Ok, i will read what he write there, atm i have a bit cooled down. Sometimes a litte relax works wonders.. :thumbsup:

Berthier
09-16-2014, 22:44
Well done Jorg, you're now an official midshipman and can behave as they would! :wink::salute:

Coog
09-16-2014, 23:30
Congratulations on your promotion Jörg.:salute:

Nightmoss
09-17-2014, 00:00
Yes indeed. Congratulations on your promotion!

Gunner
09-17-2014, 01:47
Congratulations midshipman:beer:

Like you Jörg, I'm more than a little put off by the lack of information from Ares, no matter what the excuse.
Until I see the stores restocked and information on the V&C and wave 3, I'm done buying their products.
X-Wing caught my eye and pocketbook.

Diamondback
09-17-2014, 13:06
I also know about some new stuff coming in the Wave 1 reprint, but again I don't consider myself at liberty to say more than there's an added offering for each sculpt. (And it won't be the mentioned-on-BGG Kickstarter-names-with-new-paint versions!)

kenji
09-17-2014, 14:04
I also know about some new stuff coming in the Wave 1 reprint, but again I don't consider myself at liberty to say more than there's an added offering for each sculpt. (And it won't be the mentioned-on-BGG Kickstarter-names-with-new-paint versions!)

The suspense you are creating with your hints is killing me :question:

Hopefully Ares will help the community by providing more news soon.

Diamondback
09-17-2014, 14:19
I broached Eric's idea of them hiring a social media intern, and their position was basically "that's part of what we bring some of you guys from the fan community onto the inside for." So you can treat that as not so much from me, as from RdM via me.

Wave 2 second run is shipping soon if not already, by the way! I asked CSI to hold the replacement order for my four broken First Rates until the could send 2nd-run stock, and just got the tracking number yesterday.

kenji
09-17-2014, 14:37
Wave 2 second run is shipping soon if not already, by the way!

Would I be correct in assuming that these Wave 2 ships will come in the newly enhanced packaging that is designed to prevent miniatures damage?

Diamondback
09-17-2014, 14:40
Yes, Kenji--that was one of the things I specifically requested that they wait to replace my defectives until they could draw from that stock, and forwarded Roberto's "How to Tell" notes.

They should be in next Tuesday, I'll report on 'em then.

Coog
09-17-2014, 20:39
Until I see the stores restocked and information on the V&C and wave 3, I'm done buying their products.

If I remember correctly with what you have already bought, do you really need any more?:minis::minis::minis::minis::minis::minis: :happy:


X-Wing caught my eye and pocketbook.

Same here. I've been playing once a week and having a lot of fun.:happy:

And there is plenty of new stuff coming that I can't wait to get.:moneygone:

On top of that, I'm not really that enthused with the choice of SOG sculpts offered thus far and haven't bought any Wave 2 sculpts yet, waiting to see what Wave 3 has to offer before I invest anymore in the game.:Arrrr:

Gunner
09-17-2014, 21:20
[QUOTE=Coog;39007]If I remember correctly with what you have already bought, do you really need any more?:minis::minis::minis::minis::minis::minis::happy:

He who dies with the most toys, wins:drinks: And it doesn't look like I'm losing.

Diamondback
09-17-2014, 21:21
"He who Dies With The Most Toys... Still DIES."

Gunner
09-17-2014, 21:22
"He who Dies With The Most Toys... Still DIES."

But :happy:

Diamondback
09-17-2014, 21:23
But you STILL can't take it with you... LOL

Gunner
09-17-2014, 21:26
But you STILL can't take it with you... LOL

I ordered a three decker coffin:beer:

Diamondback
09-17-2014, 22:56
Cool, so if a little grave-robbery is in order I know who to dig up. :P

7eat51
09-18-2014, 08:36
I broached Eric's idea of them hiring a social media intern, and their position was basically "that's part of what we bring some of you guys from the fan community onto the inside for." So you can treat that as not so much from me, as from RdM via me.

That means they don't get it. It is similar to the difference between handing a camera to a guest at a wedding and hiring a professional photographer. Such a response saddens me given my desire to see them succeed.

Nightmoss
09-18-2014, 09:10
That means they don't get it. It is similar to the difference between handing a camera to a guest at a wedding and hiring a professional photographer. Such a response saddens me given my desire to see them succeed.

A very unfortunate response, which only reinforces my concern on how well Ares will be able to optimize SoG marketing and success in future.

csadn
09-18-2014, 15:39
But you STILL can't take it with you... LOL

http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120917212517/boardwalkempire/images/thumb/c/cb/Tutankhamun.gif/250px-Tutankhamun.gif

"Someone called?"

Arakus
09-19-2014, 12:19
Ok, friday evening and another week without any infos from Ares...... :sad:

Popsical
09-19-2014, 13:37
To be honest, if a company like ares wasnt throwing everything at their Tolkien stuff now id be concerned.
We cant expect much else before the new year.

DeRuyter
09-25-2014, 11:31
Here is an update of sorts in a post by Andrea on BGG yesterday:

"We are now going to release Spanish ships, but they are not necessairly a new faction - you can use them together with Spanish ships, as they fought at Trafalgar. So you do not need to build a whole fleet out of them.
Same for US ships - Thorn being already released, USS Constitution coming soon."

Still leaves open the question of when will Wave 3 be released of course.

Diamondback
09-25-2014, 11:33
Well, that's one less cat I gotta worry about letting out of the bag... :)

David Manley
09-25-2014, 12:00
.....a new faction


"Faction" - geez, I hate the casual use that gamers have for that word.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2y8Sx4B2Sk

Arakus
09-25-2014, 12:09
Here is an update of sorts in a post by Andrea on BGG yesterday

Can you post the link pls?

Coog
09-25-2014, 12:11
Here is an update of sorts in a post by Andrea on BGG yesterday:

"We are now going to release Spanish ships, but they are not necessairly a new faction - you can use them together with Spanish ships, as they fought at Trafalgar. So you do not need to build a whole fleet out of them.
Same for US ships - Thorn being already released, USS Constitution coming soon."

Still leaves open the question of when will Wave 3 be released of course.

I'm not sure what to make out of the "Same for US ships" comment on US ships.

Gunner
09-25-2014, 12:51
Well, that's one less cat I gotta worry about letting out of the bag... :)

Can the Spanish rates be let out of the bag?:drinks:

Arakus
09-25-2014, 13:13
Can the Spanish rates be let out of the bag?:drinks:

Well for spanish ships of this time there are a few possible:

112 gun SoL class
80 gun SoL class
74 gun SoL class
32 - 36 gun frigate class

I will hope the will release the Santissima Trinidad as a special ship like the Victory and Constitution.

As they released 4 model types per wave before its possible that they release these 4 models types obove, the american can maybe be some frigates of the last type.

Gunner
09-25-2014, 13:45
As much as I would like the Santissima, I hope they release a 74 and the Frigate first:beer:

Diamondback
09-25-2014, 14:19
Can the Spanish rates be let out of the bag?:drinks:
Ed, do you have any idea how much badgering it took just to get e'm to give up THAT much? LOL Every two weeks: "The natives grow restless... I understand y'all have a lot on the plate, but please give me an OK to placate them with SOMETHING."

Gunner
09-25-2014, 14:39
Even that much was enough to have me hold off on X-Wing purchases for a while. I do want to gather a Spanish fleet. Thanks:beer:

Diamondback
09-25-2014, 14:51
BTW, Jorg, since I can't reply at BGG do to them wanting to Out some HIGHLY sensitive personal info, Santissima Trinidad WILL be a Special--there's no way they CAN do her as a regular, and for her place in Spanish naval history she DESERVES nothing less.

WTF is it with stupid monkeys on the Internet wanting to help enhance the Bullseye I have to deal with having on my back every day? First AOPA, then BGG... which pack of butt-clowns is gonna try to HAND my personal info to the stalker I inherited from my ex next? I don't carry a (for the record, licensed) .45 everywhere just because I like guns or think they're cool... it's because there IS a sick SOB out there that both CAN and WANTS TO kill me.

David Manley
09-25-2014, 14:54
BTW, Jorg, since I can't reply at BGG do to them wanting to Out some HIGHLY sensitive personal info....

Just do what everyone else does and make something up. Its not as if BGG will sue you for providing false information

Diamondback
09-25-2014, 14:59
Right, I'm sure that'll work next time I order from BGG Store too... LOL

Is there ANYONE else in the gaming community that's ever had to face a stalker problem? Now you all see why I don't do Facebook or Twitter, and am only vague about my location and so vicious about guarding my anonymity... :)

Apologies for the rant, y'all.

Arakus
09-25-2014, 15:01
BTW, Jorg, since I can't reply at BGG do to them wanting to Out some HIGHLY sensitive personal info, Santissima Trinidad WILL be a Special--there's no way they CAN do her as a regular, and for her place in Spanish naval history she DESERVES nothing less.

Thx for clarify, i just couln't think they release this huge ship as a normal model as it was the only one in its class so it must be a special model.
As for the other rates i believe the 112 gun SoL class will be a model as there was some very famous ships in the spanish navy in this class. ( and i believe they will look good as model! ) :happy:
For the other models i am not sure, 80 guns class is a spanish and french thing so they can make also french ships with the model.
And the 74 gun SoL is a must i think and can be used for other countrys too as prize ships.

David Manley
09-25-2014, 15:31
Right, I'm sure that'll work next time I order from BGG Store too... LOL

Is there ANYONE else in the gaming community that's ever had to face a stalker problem? Now you all see why I don't do Facebook or Twitter, and am only vague about my location and so vicious about guarding my anonymity... :)

Apologies for the rant, y'all.

I know plenty of gamers in the "less conventional" side of international relations and military service who face the same issues. They get along by just making stuff up :)

I don't think buying from the BGG store is compulsory.....

Arakus
09-25-2014, 16:06
A new info from Andrea Angiolino in answer of my question if Santissima Trinidad will be a special ship:


I think that it will probably be a third special pack, in due time. Before that, to be quicker we will have other spanish ships in the 3rd series. And even before, to be even quicker, a couple of French ships captured by the Spanish and used by them in their navy among the reprints of Series 1.

So we will see some wave 1 ships as spanish ones soon. ( or what ares thinks when they say soon :happy: )

csadn
09-25-2014, 16:39
Is there ANYONE else in the gaming community that's ever had to face a stalker problem? Now you all see why I don't do Facebook or Twitter, and am only vague about my location and so vicious about guarding my anonymity... :)

Not personally; however, some of my associates *can* relate -- and most of them are *much* more heavily-armed than just a solitary .45 (I know one guy, an author, who has a closet whose contents one could use to overthrow a couple sub-Saharan-African nations).

And since my father worked on SDI: Yeah, I understand the phrase "Operational Security". (I answered some... unusual... phone calls as a child.)

Nightmoss
09-25-2014, 16:46
Right, I'm sure that'll work next time I order from BGG Store too... LOL

Is there ANYONE else in the gaming community that's ever had to face a stalker problem? Now you all see why I don't do Facebook or Twitter, and am only vague about my location and so vicious about guarding my anonymity... :)

Apologies for the rant, y'all.

I don't have a stalker, but I certainly wont do Facebook or Twitter for issues of privacy most folks don't even stop to think about!

Diamondback
09-25-2014, 18:46
Not personally; however, some of my associates *can* relate -- and most of them are *much* more heavily-armed than just a solitary .45 [snip]
LOL, Chris, I'm only talking about Daily Carry, not Homestead Defense. :)

David, point... but when you're a completist collector that means having to deal with them sometimes for exclusives--I'll send them a note to ask if they have a better fix for mailing but not forum display.

Kentop
09-25-2014, 21:25
So, the term "thread" is rather loosely defined in the Anchorage, meaning "anywhere the topic goes just run with it".

Diamondback
09-25-2014, 21:33
Get used to drift... it's called "going with the current". LOL Eventually things find their way back to course, whether naturally or with a little tacking...

"Give it a chance, you'll get used to it... or have a Psychotic Episode."--Agent Zed, MIB

Kentop
09-25-2014, 22:24
Meanwhile, back at the original topic...Arakus is doing what every fan of these types of games has ever done, fret over lack of new announcements or releases. Back in the day when talking about Steve Jackson games like Car Wars (Yes, I subscribed to their Quarterly and bought everything they released) the main gripe I had was waiting for months for the next cheesy "Amarillo Armadillo Arena" release. Ares is too busy making sure SOG will stay in production, much less release new stuff. What Ares doesn't understand, and all us old wargaming salts hanging around here know, is that we will keep SOG going long after the financial interests have cashed out and the creators have retired to their villas in Tuscany. Relax Arakus (say that real fast three times). Hey! I just said that three times perfectly! Um, what was I saying? Oh yeah, the Anchorage will be around long, long after Ares was sold to Hasbro.

Gunner
09-25-2014, 23:03
the Anchorage will be around long, long after Ares was sold to Hasbro.

I hope Keith shares your thought:beer:

Naharaht
09-25-2014, 23:23
The confirmation that there will be some Spanish ships soon is good news.

Gunner
09-25-2014, 23:25
+1 :beer:

Diamondback
09-25-2014, 23:39
Frankly, if Ares sells to Hasbro, bye-bye Anchorage, bye-bye WGF/S and bye-bye SGN. The only reason Forumini survives is that they were treating Axis & Allies Minis as Abandonware even while it was still in production, plus the sheer number of us who bolted from the craptastic "official forum"... the only things they'd keep would be the Tolkien licenses.

Frankly, despite the no-love-lost factor I'd think FFG would be a better merger partner--understands MINIATURES (as opposed to card) gaming, and better communication with the end-customers. (Mind you, this is coming from somebody who considers them RADIOACTIVE after how they Blue Falconed the Nexus/Ares team after Italeri pulled the plug... and I haven't bought a single Italeri modeling product since either.)

Coog
09-26-2014, 10:24
Frankly, if Ares sells to Hasbro, bye-bye Anchorage, bye-bye WGF/S and bye-bye SGN.

Sails of Glory produced under Hasbro:

11656

Diamondback
09-26-2014, 10:28
You'd expect THAT high quality? LOL I think you overestimate them...

David Manley
09-26-2014, 11:01
Those would be the high quality special edition versions :)

Diamondback
09-26-2014, 11:04
And I think it's safe to say whoever assembled some of the ships in that photo doesn't know a stempost from their sphincter...

Coog
09-26-2014, 11:15
And I think it's safe to say whoever assembled some of the ships in that photo doesn't know a stempost from their sphincter...

They were just following the assembly instructions provided by Hasbro for their SOG products.:happy:

7eat51
09-26-2014, 11:27
Sue and I are currently in Ohio with our Buckeye wingmen from the 'Drome to run some WoG games at the USAF Museum for a 100th anniversary of WWI event. Unfortunately, today, I am sitting at a B&B drowning in a work project, and just checked in for a momentary break. I read yesterday's and today's posts in this "thread", and all I can say is that I miss you guys. I won't be on much until Monday, and I feel the absence.

Kenneth, you do realize you are on a ship navigated by a bunch of drunken sailors? To remain on-topic is beyond our current capabilities. :wink:

csadn
09-26-2014, 13:43
Sails of Glory produced under Hasbro:

11656

Is that from the First Edition, where the Blue Player always wins? (Yes, I have that game; and yes, I figured out why they had to rewrite it for 2nd Edition.)

*And* I am also awaiting SJG to make good on _Car Wars 6th Edition_ -- altho' from what I know (and I know more than I can say here), they're on a short course to suiciding the property.

Swamprat33
09-27-2014, 05:57
Hey, they may be crappy, but at least the packaging was good so that none of the masts were broken....

csadn
09-27-2014, 16:51
Hey, they may be crappy, but at least the packaging was good so that none of the masts were broken....

Something to be said for "soft" plastic and removable masts. >:)

DeRuyter
10-02-2014, 08:56
"Faction" - geez, I hate the casual use that gamers have for that word.



Agreed - is it worse that the quote was from one of the game designers?

I see it as bleed over from GW games. Although I can see Andrea getting it from Ares' Lord of the Rings game.

Diamondback
10-02-2014, 16:14
Well, for some of us who came up in other game lines, it's hard to call "pirates," "mercenaries," fictitious East Asian uprisings and the Undead "nations" as the WhizzKids dweebs did. LOL

Warspite
12-06-2014, 12:32
will we get santisima trinidad as a spanish ship?

As a big WAS player I don't even want to think about WOTC buying Ares like what has been said FFG would be a much better partner.

Diamondback
12-06-2014, 12:46
Oh, you mean "better partner" like how they said "you might as well sell to us 'cuz we're gonna rip off your game and reissue it under a new brand-name anyway if you don't"?

I'm sorry, I have ZERO tolerance for Buddy F-ers (IMO, they share the worst circle of Hell with oath-breakers and traitors), and while WOTC may be cutthroat, shortsighted and avaricious, they don't cross the line into Blue Falconry like FFG did.

Warspite
12-06-2014, 13:16
Oh, you mean "better partner" like how they said "you might as well sell to us 'cuz we're gonna rip off your game and reissue it under a new brand-name anyway if you don't"?

I'm sorry, I have ZERO tolerance for Buddy F-ers (IMO, they share the worst circle of Hell with oath-breakers and traitors), and while WOTC may be cutthroat, shortsighted and avaricious, they don't cross the line into Blue Falconry like FFG did.

I guess I meant more in quality of product then in treacherous business practices. I would worry that if a WOTC/Hasbro type took control the first business practice to happen would be to cut costs and quality and sales would decrease and the game would die. X-wing is very much a rip off of Wings of glory but it is at very least well done and shows some pretty good game design, with WAS I feel most of its best attributes happened by accident and weren't directly brought about by RB or WOTC moreso by accident.

But by no means do I approve of what FFG did.

Diamondback
12-06-2014, 13:27
Actually, the FFG ripoff, I'm not sure if it ever hit market, was not so much X-wing (though I personally consider it a rip-off, Andrea A. has said not-so-much and if he's at peace with it I'll follow his lead) but rather an allegation that they intended to do a Blue Max relaunch as a Wings of War clone.

And, it's not Set in Stone, but back in the Kickstarter's comments they did say they plan to do Santissima Trinidad as a Special Pack release. (Future SP's, though, depend on how well Victory and Constitution sell--so those of you whho didn't preorder with the KS better get to buyin' when they release! :) )

Nightmoss
12-06-2014, 14:19
Actually, the FFG ripoff, I'm not sure if it ever hit market, was not so much X-wing (though I personally consider it a rip-off, Andrea A. has said not-so-much and if he's at peace with it I'll follow his lead) but rather an allegation that they intended to do a Blue Max relaunch as a Wings of War clone.

And, it's not Set in Stone, but back in the Kickstarter's comments they did say they plan to do Santissima Trinidad as a Special Pack release. (Future SP's, though, depend on how well Victory and Constitution sell--so those of you whho didn't preorder with the KS better get to buyin' when they release! :) )

I preordered 4 additional copies of the Constitution and 1 of the Victory, which is on top of my 1 and 1 ship credit from the KS order. Is that good enough for now? :wink:
I do hope Ares ordered enough at the factory to fulfill all KS orders AND what I expect is going to be a pretty large demand for these two ships in the general SoG market?

fredmiracle
12-06-2014, 15:53
With Santissima Trinidad, my sense is that the game designers/developers are pretty passionate about the game, and would like to do it a lot. But it may be a very hard ship to make the business case. There is (I believe) no other ship it could reasonably reprinted as (?). I could imagine myself buying two, but in general the market is limited to one per player, ever. And if it turns out some people aren't into the Spanish (?), the market is diminished further.

Victory and Constitution were total no-brainers by comparison, not just because of their fame and status as museum ships (and the US tie-in with the latter), but also because they had a lot more reuse potential--the Victory work (as I understand it) overlapped a lot with the wave-2 first-rates, and I'm sure we will see Constitution again as President and United States.

Of course none of us knows the financial stuff, so it's super hard to predict. Probably even Ares is only starting to get a handle on the market, since the KS made things a bit weird, and then the mast problems were a big setback. If V&C sell well, AND their price points hold up really well, AND the various planned Spanish ships get issued, AND they sell well too, then maybe Ares would be encouraged to take the plunge.

The fact that they are more of a "boutique" firm cuts both ways there. On the one hand the number of projects they can take on is limited. But on the other hand, they have a personal stake in the game, so if there's even a break-even business case, they might be willing to do it where a bigger company wouldn't see the return

Diamondback
12-06-2014, 16:33
Fred, while there are a number of design differences between the various ships of SGN108 and Victory, the 108 sculpt is you might say a "down-graded" version of the 201 Victory sculpt. Royal Sovereign-Ville de Paris-Hibernia were one clustered design group, the two 1745 Est 100's a second completely unrelated, and the three Umpires another--the commonality was "design to fit in this length x breadth space, this tonnage and this weapon distro across three decks and upperworks." Victory's closest direct relatives would be the 1810 pair of Boyne 98's, the Russian Ches'ma class and if memory serves the three Nelsons.

Constitution reuse, you could also add the 1814-launched USS Guerriere and USS Java (which both either just made or just missed the War of 1812), and IIRC the Russian 1820's Palladas were copied from HMS President (well after game-end, but might be a way to stroke the Commie Fanboys).

fredmiracle
12-06-2014, 17:18
the 108 sculpt is you might say a "down-graded" version of the 201 Victory sculpt. Royal Sovereign-Ville de Paris-Hibernia were one clustered design group, the two 1745 Est 100's a second completely unrelated, and the three Umpires another--the commonality was "design to fit in this length x breadth space, this tonnage and this weapon distro across three decks and upperworks." Victory's closest direct relatives would be the 1810 pair of Boyne 98's, the Russian Ches'ma class and if memory serves the three Nelsons.


Hmm, that's interesting--you are right that Victory has a different model than Royal Sovereign, et al. I had assumed they would share most of the same parts, with maybe a bit or two added/modified on Victory. But it looks like most every part is different. So maybe they aren't counting on getting as much "reprint" mileage out of it as I had assumed...



IIRC the Russian 1820's Palladas were copied from HMS President (well after game-end, but might be a way to stroke the Commie Fanboys).

Wouldn't that have to be Tsarist fanboys?

Diamondback
12-06-2014, 17:23
Fred, I mean the hull sculpts of 108 and 201 are based on the same 3d-model, while the historical designs were very different. On a technical standpoint, Victory is more like a Bellona on steroids and with a third gun-deck than she is either the "old" (1756) or "new" (1788) Royal Georges--both Victory and Bellona are variations on Pierre Morineau's 1744 L'Invincible taken by the RN in 1747.

True, but you know how I pathologically HAVE to tweak the Kremlin Kossack Kultist Komrades... :D

Kentop
12-06-2014, 17:37
(well after game-end, but might be a way to stroke the Commie Fanboys).

Stroke the Commie fanboys? With a ship built in 1820? The Russian Revolution happened almost one hundred years later. I don't think any commies have any affection for Tsar Alexander I's ships. For real commie fanboys, history started in 1917. I know whereof I speak, apologies to Wittgenstein.

David Manley
12-07-2014, 00:02
....... might be a way to stroke the Commie Fanboys.....

I'm sure you didn't mean for that to come across as rude and insulting as it was

Diamondback
12-07-2014, 00:05
Equal Opportunity Offender, remember? I diss USN Homers too...

7eat51
12-07-2014, 00:10
apologies to Wittgenstein.

Early or late? :wink:

Warspite
12-07-2014, 06:50
With Santissima Trinidad, my sense is that the game designers/developers are pretty passionate about the game, and would like to do it a lot. But it may be a very hard ship to make the business case. There is (I believe) no other ship it could reasonably reprinted as (?). I could imagine myself buying two, but in general the market is limited to one per player, ever. And if it turns out some people aren't into the Spanish (?), the market is diminished further.

Victory and Constitution were total no-brainers by comparison, not just because of their fame and status as museum ships (and the US tie-in with the latter), but also because they had a lot more reuse potential--the Victory work (as I understand it) overlapped a lot with the wave-2 first-rates, and I'm sure we will see Constitution again as President and United States.

Of course none of us knows the financial stuff, so it's super hard to predict. Probably even Ares is only starting to get a handle on the market, since the KS made things a bit weird, and then the mast problems were a big setback. If V&C sell well, AND their price points hold up really well, AND the various planned Spanish ships get issued, AND they sell well too, then maybe Ares would be encouraged to take the plunge.

The fact that they are more of a "boutique" firm cuts both ways there. On the one hand the number of projects they can take on is limited. But on the other hand, they have a personal stake in the game, so if there's even a break-even business case, they might be willing to do it where a bigger company wouldn't see the return

One of the great successes x-wing has is having each release come with various upgrade cards that other ships and factions (rebel,imperial) can use/need. While the model would have limited buy multiples appeal relevant cards that enhance the flavour and enjoyability of the game would certainly ensure that everyone buys one which may be enough. I am sure many of the wave 1 and 2 models are reprints of each other but I haven't bought all of them simply because as a "captain" level game there is no need for me to have an a huge personal fleet 3 of each 1,3,5 rate is more then enough and I am sure other people may do the same thing (though of course if you have the funds its awesome to have everything)

I can't quite remember but wasn't there a mention in one of there news posts how they were considering a Trinidad special release ala HMS victory and USS constitution.?

Nightmoss
12-07-2014, 09:22
If Ares has doubts about the economic feasibility of a special edition Santisima Trinidad wouldn't this be the perfect opportunity to use Kickstarter to gauge actual interest and dollar input to create the sculpt, cards, etc.? The whole point of KS is to see if the general public has interest and cash to back up a project that might not ever see the light of day using traditional funding and production methods.

Ares is a small shop so it's difficult to manage a herd of IP's and Kickstarter projects, but I think the ST as a KS special edition might be a good fit. Right along with a special "Pirate Pack" expansion?

fredmiracle
12-07-2014, 10:16
One of the great successes x-wing has is having each release come with various upgrade cards that other ships and factions (rebel,imperial) can use/need. While the model would have limited buy multiples appeal relevant cards that enhance the flavour and enjoyability of the game would certainly ensure that everyone buys one which may be enough. I am sure many of the wave 1 and 2 models are reprints of each other but I haven't bought all of them simply because as a "captain" level game there is no need for me to have an a huge personal fleet 3 of each 1,3,5 rate is more then enough and I am sure other people may do the same thing (though of course if you have the funds its awesome to have everything)

I can't quite remember but wasn't there a mention in one of there news posts how they were considering a Trinidad special release ala HMS victory and USS constitution.?

If you poke around on old threads, you will see me expressing surprise/mild-disappointment that Ares made so little effort to differentiate the ships--so as to give more gameplay options, and encourage people to buy more of them. I think most people on the boards disagreed with me. And it is true that that kind of thing does almost inevitably run counter to strict historicity (even if it could add historical flavor), and taken too far can seem exploitative. At any rate, the way Ares has designed the game appears to have left them little room for action on this now.

You are right that if/when they do S.T. it will be in a special pack format like V&C. Thus it will include a couple of distinct configurations, and some captain cards. These cards will add to its overall appeal, but I don't imagine that they would be intended for transfer to another ship, nor provide any additional purchase rationale ...


If Ares has doubts about the economic feasibility of a special edition Santisima Trinidad wouldn't this be the perfect opportunity to use Kickstarter to gauge actual interest and dollar input to create the sculpt, cards, etc.? ...

Good point, that might make a lot of sense.

Gunner
12-07-2014, 10:42
Good idea Jim. Sounds like the Santisima Trinidad and a pirate ship would be a perfect time for Ares to start a KS (or not) and come out with their first twin pack only available as a set. If that doesn't go well they could sell them separately at a later date.

My thinking being, it might introduce pirate only players to Napoleonics, and visa versa.

David Manley
12-07-2014, 10:54
Good idea Jim. Sounds like the Santisima Trinidad and a pirate ship would be a perfect time for Ares to start a KS (or not) and come out with their first twin pack only available as a set. If that doesn't go well they could sell them separately at a later date.

My thinking being, it might introduce pirate only players to Napoleonics, and visa versa.

Santissima Trinidad and a pirate ship as a twin pack set?

Why?

Gunner
12-07-2014, 11:24
Santissima Trinidad and a pirate ship as a twin pack set?

Why?

I thought I answered that with the last sentence.

fredmiracle
12-07-2014, 11:50
I wonder how Ares feels about the effectiveness of using the KS model for SGN at this point. It would be interesting to get the inside scoop...

Nightmoss
12-07-2014, 12:16
Good idea Jim. Sounds like the Santisima Trinidad and a pirate ship would be a perfect time for Ares to start a KS (or not) and come out with their first twin pack only available as a set. If that doesn't go well they could sell them separately at a later date.

My thinking being, it might introduce pirate only players to Napoleonics, and visa versa.

Well, if I could have a say I would do the Santisima Trinidad all by herself as a KS project.

If Ares would ever go the twin pack route (seems unlikely) I'd think they'd want at least one of those sculpts to be of use in other reprint/editions. In that case I'd suggest the Santa Ana (another Trafalgar veteran) if they want to stick with 1st rates. Otherwise I'd go with two Spanish SoL's to match up with the Wave 1 reprints we'll be seeing soon.

As for the Pirates I still think that's a KS to be done all on it's own, whether or not they want to stick with historical versions or a fantasy version akin to the Black Pearl and Captain Jack. The problem here is the time frame and also what Fred has pointed out in other posts (the limited range of any new ship variations due to the initial design parameters).

Between the two Pirates is going to be more appealing to a larger gamer base and more likely to sell well in the market.

Gunner
12-07-2014, 12:30
No matter how they do it, I'd like to have the Santisima Trinidad in my hands by early third quarter (wishful thinking) of 15.

David Manley
12-07-2014, 13:00
I thought I answered that with the last sentence.

Ah, in that case I doubt it. Napoleonic players are going to want a useful ship if they are saddled with a "twofer", a pirate might be OK if it came with stats for a standard merchie, but there would also be the annoyance that if you wanted more than one merchie you'd be stuck with an excess 4 decker.

And anyone wanting to get into pirates is going to have the same problem. Only one ship.

TBH if Ares was going for a pirate based game I'd (a) set it in a Hollywood setting - and be very open about it and (b) up the scale to 1/600

Naharaht
12-07-2014, 14:27
There are several options for pirate ships. If Ares produced a square rigger with no flag, it could be used as a generic merchant ship on one side of the card and be a pirate on the other side. There could be North African Xebecs or galleys as pirate ships or Far Eastern Junks as pirate ships.

David Manley
12-07-2014, 14:44
Remember the thread many months ago asking for suggestions for merchant/pirate ships that was run with a view to Ares producing the most popular suggestions? I wonder what happened to the results of that?

fredmiracle
12-07-2014, 15:04
TBH if Ares was going for a pirate based game I'd (a) set it in a Hollywood setting - and be very open about it and (b) up the scale to 1/600

I see your points. I definitely think any pirate offering should not conform to history, and should be honest about it.

But I would also imagine Ares might have a strong preference toward trying to maintain some kind of interoperability with SGN. At a minimum, I'd be surprised by a scale change. If the molds are a huge part of the fixed costs in producing these games, then I'd think they'd want to reuse the existing molds to act as the navy ships that are inevitably sent to fight the pirates, and to reuse merchants ships across both lines, etc.

Beyond the scale compatibility, I wonder if a good, non-historically-bounded, swashbuckling pirate bolt-on could be designed, which still allowed the ships to participate in SGN battles (and vice-versa).

Diamondback
12-07-2014, 17:33
We already have a sort-of "pirate" released... 1779 Thorn was a privateer, and the biggest difference between a licensed privateer and a pirate was whether the opposing nation was inclined to recognize the legitimacy of your license or not. (Remember, to a lot of Brits even WITH his Continental Navy commission and the fact that he RETURNED some property some of the men under his command had seized in a shore raid with apologies John Paul Jones was STILL a "pirate"?)

DeRuyter
12-08-2014, 09:00
Ah, in that case I doubt it. Napoleonic players are going to want a useful ship if they are saddled with a "twofer", a pirate might be OK if it came with stats for a standard merchie, but there would also be the annoyance that if you wanted more than one merchie you'd be stuck with an excess 4 decker.

And anyone wanting to get into pirates is going to have the same problem. Only one ship.

TBH if Ares was going for a pirate based game I'd (a) set it in a Hollywood setting - and be very open about it and (b) up the scale to 1/600

I agree any Pirate offerings should be separate. The differing scale brings up a couple of issues. As Fred noted you have the economics and interoperability with SGN ships, but OTH if you are sticking with historical pirates you are looking mostly at smaller ships anyway, sloops and schooners, etc. which is problematic with the current scale as we've seen.

Or you stick with Hollywood pirates such as the conversions done by Jim and others. Then you could have a whole pirate "faction" :takecover: That would help bring over the pirate only crowd to SGN. See what FFG just did with X-Wing, now they have a separate mercenary "faction" if you will (called "Scum and Villains" or some such name).*


*Disclaimer: I am in no way advocating bringing the "faction" concept into a historical game, but I have seen it help bring over non-historical gamers.

7eat51
12-09-2014, 01:29
I would prefer some ahistorical and visually catching pirate ships. I can easily see capturing folks at our FLGS, especially younger crowds. I believe, too, that once they are comfortable with the mechanics, and one or two games with non-advanced rules is sufficient, they would be more open to historically oriented scenarios, especially when accompanied by a brief briefing.

I would guess any dual packs would pit compatible ships with each other, similarly to the WoG dual packs - maybe calling them duel packs.

I wonder how many original KS folks who are still active with the game would support any form of SoG KS given their experience with the initial one.

David Manley
12-09-2014, 09:26
The duel pack is an interesting and, I think, very credible approach. How about something like this?

Given that most pirate ships were converted merchants or privateers akin to small warships Ares could produce a sculpt of a merchant and one of a brig or similar small warship and then produce two duel packs, one in which the merchant is a merchant and the brig themed as a pirate, the second where the merchant is themed as a pirate and the brig is a regular navy ship. For more variety a second version of this pack with the merchant in a different scheme as another pirate and the brig with a different scheme and ensign for another country. Possibly even sold with stripped down "starter" rules akin to the WGF starter sets

Even more variety if the brig and merchant are available in yet more schemes / nationalities as individual models later.

Gunner
12-09-2014, 10:16
I hope Ares reads Eric's "duel pack" packaging and Dave's use of various merchants as pirate VS pirate or frigate ideas. I'm not much on Pirates but, their ideas put together would be the worm on the hook for me.

7eat51
12-09-2014, 10:17
I think such an idea has true merit. Such a duel pack could introduce the game to general gamers by using a theme more familiar, as well as add to the collections of already-vested players. I, for one, would pick them up without question. Additionally, the lower price point would be far more accessible and attractive to potential players.

I think it is important to remember that not everyone who comes to an SoG table is a war-gamer. I truly believe, though, that once players become familiar with the game's mechanism, they would be far more open to historically oriented engagements. Your idea, David, would not have to deviate from history unless the pirate ships are painted in more popular, read Hollywood, styles. As someone with limited modeling skills, I would not be opposed to having a few pre-painted versions of such ships, recognizing their value in attracting players, especially younger players with more active imaginations.

A week ago, I pointed out the WoG dual pack to someone asking about the games at our FLGS. He thought the price was excellent for the value he would be getting, especially for a game he was unsure about. I, purposely, strayed away from showing him the SoG starter set due to price. Once he is hooked with Ares' mechanism, then the current starter is more probable. If there was a similar dual pack for SoG, I would have shown him the options knowing he could purchase both for less than the current SoG starter.

Nightmoss
12-09-2014, 13:04
I rather like the idea of a dual package approach and we've certainly been asking Ares to consider doing merchant ships for as long as I've been hanging around the Anchorage.

If you include a merchant ship with a pirate ship approximating an historical pirate counterpart I'm just not sure the scale, detail and color schemes will appeal enough to the non AoS crowd? I'm pretty certain any dual pack like this would be a sure thing for me, but I'm not the general public, and what will move to the average buyer has to be the main consideration for Ares. Of course smaller ships will mean less entry cost and a better chance of bringing in new players if the dual pack could contain some basic game approach and still have enough 'flash' to catch one's eye.

fredmiracle
12-09-2014, 13:24
If you include a merchant ship with a pirate ship approximating an historical pirate counterpart I'm just not sure the scale, detail and color schemes will appeal enough to the non AoS crowd? I'm pretty certain any dual pack like this would be a sure thing for me, but I'm not the general public, and what will move to the average buyer has to be the main consideration for Ares. Of course smaller ships will mean less entry cost and a better chance of bringing in new players if the dual pack could contain some basic game approach and still have enough 'flash' to catch one's eye.

I tend to agree. To sell you'd want 2 ships akin to the Concorde or Hebe frigates, reasonably well matched, one with lots of black and huge skull/crossbones, and one with lots of gilt paint and bright colors to be the "guv'nors flagship" or some such

7eat51
12-09-2014, 18:20
I can easily see multiple dual packs, one as you mention, Fred, and others that are more traditional. Two evenly matched historical SoLs, for example, could appeal to war-gamers while still being something already-in players could want. I bought many of the WoG dual packs for repaints, gifts, etc. If Ares is going to print 12 ships in a wave, why not take two of the schemes and package them in a dual pack like they did in WoG? If the dual pack had different schemes, then the wave would effectively be 14 ships. Again, I would buy to have the additional schemes. Such a low cost of entry for potential recruits seems a no-brainer to me. I might be missing something here, but I am not sure what it is.

Naharaht
12-10-2014, 15:56
Dual packs might have more appeal if they represented famous ship duels such as H.M.S. Shannon vs the U.S.S. Chesapeake or the Bonhomme Richard vs H.M.S. Serapis.

Diamondback
12-10-2014, 16:03
Here's the problem... I thought about that too, but the rub is Ares would want DP's to also be regular-run ships and there just Ain't No Chance in HELL that there's enough that you can torture a Chesapeake sculpt into coming up with six names across three packs. The closest you get is FIVE maybe, and that's IF the Humphreys 38's and Philadelphia are close-enough to share the sculpt. (Get over the myth of Chesapeake as a 44 Right Now--she only ever really was in the same class as the Humphreys 44's on paper, and size-wise is pretty close to Philadelphia and the other 38s.)

BHR, similar--while there were a number of 900- to 1200-ton French East Indiamen designed by Antoine Groignard that are very close relatives, with not exactly having another US-flag version (I'm looking into other French two-deckers and thought I saw another transferred to fly the Stars and Stripes, but I'm not sure) available for a Side B that basically means she's gonig to have to be a Special Pack like Victory. IF the Special Pack line sells well enough to continue it, that is...

Now MAYBE if they were to expand further to a line of special Scenario Packs, something like Balloon Busters or what they've partially done with the WGS Viermots... two ships and a booklet about their historical engagement and how to set it up, along with some suggested What-If divergences... THEN you might be able to get away with limited-use sculpts a little more. The rub is, SP's would have to sell REALLY well to consider taking the idea that much further...

David Manley
12-10-2014, 20:17
The comparison with the WGF balloon models is an interesting one. I think the speed with which Ares have got those back into production could be a pointer towards their views on "specials"

Diamondback
12-10-2014, 20:39
We know that the balloons themselves are planned to be back in '15 By Popular Demand--but we don't know if the rest of the Balloon Busters pack around them will be returning too, other than that my money's on the Nieuport 11 reusing the N16 sculpt with separately-applied rockets.

Nightmoss
12-10-2014, 23:25
So the bottom line is Ares isn't going to consider dual packs or special edition ships unless they're totally convinced of substantial profit over the cost and a guaranteed demand for the sculpts forever more? Doesn't sound very promising anyway you look at it.

Diamondback
12-11-2014, 12:26
Not my read at all, Jim, it's more of a "wait and see"--it sounds like they considered Balloon Busters a commercial flop, and are taking the SGN Specials as a "wait and see based on how the Sales numbers break on V&C." We know they WANT to do Santissima Trinidad and have it penciled in for long-term dev, but we also know that a one-off with no Pass-Fors has to be a Special Pack to get made at all.

Nightmoss
12-11-2014, 16:21
Not my read at all, Jim, it's more of a "wait and see"--it sounds like they considered Balloon Busters a commercial flop, and are taking the SGN Specials as a "wait and see based on how the Sales numbers break on V&C." We know they WANT to do Santissima Trinidad and have it penciled in for long-term dev, but we also know that a one-off with no Pass-Fors has to be a Special Pack to get made at all.

Well, I have my own Santisima Trinidad. :wink:

I just need to know how Ares will rate and rank it statistically (log, ship card and maneuver deck). :sly:

David Manley
12-11-2014, 16:33
Well, I have my own Santisima Trinidad.....

Yes, just think how many proxy ships of all shapes and sizes you all could have had for SGN whilst waiting for official minis if they'd stuck to 1/1200...... :happy:

:takecover:

Gunner
12-11-2014, 16:52
I just need to know how Ares will rate and rank it statistically (log, ship card and maneuver deck). :sly:

That is a great question.

DOES ANYONE ON THIS SITE KNOW WHAT SYSTEM ARES USES TO RATE THEIR LOGS, SHIP CARDS AND MANEUVER DECKS ?? They must a system for this, or is it so bad that they're ashamed to share?.

fredmiracle
12-11-2014, 17:01
DOES ANYONE ON THIS SITE KNOW WHAT SYSTEM ARES USES TO RATE THEIR LOGS, SHIP CARDS AND MANEUVER DECKS ?? They must a system for this, or is it so bad that their ashamed to share?.

I don't have the impression they've ever felt any value in sharing. And more to the point, I doubt there even really is a "system" as-such. For one thing the game doesn't have that much room for subtle distinctions, and for another thing it's pretty abstract--i.e. much more game than simulation. I think Ares' just picks numbers that "feel right" to them, and fit in relative to the other units.

The strongest indication of this may be the subtle variations between units of the same class. which usually take the form of 1 gunnery factor or musket factor, here and there, with little evident rhyme or reason. There is no system that would generate those kind of quasi-random fluctuations...

Coog
12-11-2014, 17:01
That is a great question.

DOES ANYONE ON THIS SITE KNOW WHAT SYSTEM ARES USES TO RATE THEIR LOGS, SHIP CARDS AND MANEUVER DECKS ?? They must a system for this, or is it so bad that their ashamed to share?.

Yes there is a system.

12311

Gunner
12-11-2014, 17:43
Yes there is a system.

12311

Ha, ha. At least he's on the sheet.

Diamondback
12-11-2014, 18:43
I don't think Ares has one beyond "T-LAR", but I think David came up with a very good system for an "SGN 2.0," which I've provisionally adopted--pending his blessing--for my Indian Ocean Campaign I'm writing. I have some minor reservations about how it handles oddities like the Humphreys superfrigates, but I'm sure workarounds for those can be quickly and easily developed.

David Manley
12-11-2014, 22:24
Consider your proposal blessed :happy:

I often find that rigid game stat design systems have occasional problems with outliers and oddities so I'm usually content to use the system as a starter and then tweak around the edges to get the right feel.

RotS-Targe
12-16-2014, 12:41
A little late for the party, but anyways.
For the duel packs, I think it would be a great way to introduce the game to people at a reasonable price.
It reminds me of (and I know this is a touchy comparison for some) the old WizKids Pirates games. (for those who don't like this, let me explain) One of the things they advertised was that you only needed one pack to have everything you needed to play. In every pack was two ships, the rules, a tiny die, the cards were measuring devices.
Yes, there was a big price difference etween a pack of pirates and a single ship
With the complexity of SOG, you would likely need a simplified ruleset, maybe have the range sticks come in two parts. Or maybe have the rulebook just have the basic rules and two scenarios, one that's a basic duel, and one that pertains to the ships you get, the historical duel. And then have it say "for more advanced rules, get the starter pack!"
For those who liked the game, they can get the starter pack with more confidence, making the price be less of an issue.

Nightmoss
12-16-2014, 13:16
A little late for the party, but anyways.
For the duel packs, I think it would be a great way to introduce the game to people at a reasonable price.
It reminds me of (and I know this is a touchy comparison for some) the old WizKids Pirates games. (for those who don't like this, let me explain) One of the things they advertised was that you only needed one pack to have everything you needed to play. In every pack was two ships, the rules, a tiny die, the cards were measuring devices.
Yes, there was a big price difference etween a pack of pirates and a single ship
With the complexity of SOG, you would likely need a simplified ruleset, maybe have the range sticks come in two parts. Or maybe have the rulebook just have the basic rules and two scenarios, one that's a basic duel, and one that pertains to the ships you get, the historical duel. And then have it say "for more advanced rules, get the starter pack!"
For those who liked the game, they can get the starter pack with more confidence, making the price be less of an issue.

^ +1 I'd certainly buy into something like this. While I might be more on the fanatical side of SoG support I think the general gaming public would get into this approach very easily.

7eat51
12-17-2014, 01:42
We know that the balloons themselves are planned to be back in '15 By Popular Demand--but we don't know if the rest of the Balloon Busters pack around them will be returning too, other than that my money's on the Nieuport 11 reusing the N16 sculpt with separately-applied rockets.

I have some Balloon Busters and a bunch of extra planes I need to list. I am getting tired of seeing them sitting on shelves - same with some wargames. I am just not inclined to send single plane packages around the world, so I have been holding off. I am starting to trade games on BGG which has been pretty cool. My trading partners and I are improving our collections while seeing greater potential for games to hit the table.