This date, 1814

[csadn]

http://www.historiclakes.org/Plattsburg/Plattsburg.html

The Battle of Plattsburgh, AKA Battle of Lake Champlain, marked the defeat of one of three prongs of a British invasion of the USA (a second British force in Maryland would be stopped at Baltimore a few days later; and the British invasion of the Mouth of the Mississippi would be defeated at New Orleans after the official end of the war). The defeat forced Britain to accept peace on the basis of "status quo ante bellum", with no territorial swaps or new restrictions on who could travel where. Coupled with the 1813 death of Tecumseh, and the collapse of the Indian alliance along the shores of the Great Lakes, Britain's plans to close the US out of the Great Lakes altogether, and to limit further westward US expansion, by forming a native "buffer state" came to nothing.

[Coog]

http://www.historiclakes.org/Plattsburg/Plattsburg.html

The Battle of Plattsburgh, AKA Battle of Lake Champlain, marked the defeat of one of three prongs of a British invasion of the USA (a second British force in Maryland would be stopped at Baltimore a few days later; and the British invasion of the Mouth of the Mississippi would be defeated at New Orleans after the official end of the war). The defeat forced Britain to accept peace on the basis of "status quo ante bellum", with no territorial swaps or new restrictions on who could travel where. Coupled with the 1813 death of Tecumseh, and the collapse of the Indian alliance along the shores of the Great Lakes, Britain's plans to close the US out of the Great Lakes altogether, and to limit further westward US expansion, by forming a native "buffer state" came to nothing.

With the lack of success by the British on land and water against the United States, one wonders if Napoleon was overrated.:hmmm:

[Popsical]

The logistical problems of fighting a war the other side of an ocean, as compared to across the channel, meant that old Nappy faced a far more organised and mobile British force than the US did. British European allies were more reliable and better equipped than the native indians too.
Logic dictates that the quality of troops deployed versus the french ( who could invade the UK) and against the US (who couldnt), would be superior also.

[David Manley]

Plus the fact that Coog reads different history to everybody else (apart from Chris)

:takecover::happy:

[Diamondback]

I also think we're conflating a lot of factors, technical, tactical and political. Like Black Prince/Warrior vs. a theoretical USN monitor-spam... there were a lot of things the US COULD have done but DID NOT because the political will wasn't there. We mainly wanted to leave the Old World and its squabbles behind and play in our own sandbox, and America still has strong cultural isolationist urges even today.

Maybe John Ericsson COULD have delivered a Warrior-killer. The fact is, he DIDN'T, because the will to create and deploy it wasn't there. Must everything always be an Anglo-American pissing contest? How readily we forget that America's FIRST real enemy was the French in the French & Indian War... and that they only intervened in the AWI as a matter of tit-for-tat "you took our colonial holdings so we're gonna cost you yours," and as soon as AWI was settled things went back to nature taking its course and we had the Quasi-War with the brie-eaters.

Yes, we bloodied George's nose. BUT, that might not have been the case without Boney in the Backyard--with the full force of the RN and many more Lobsterbacks available (especially first-rate troops), one could easily see it becoming either a bloody subjugation or an earlier Vietnam or 1980s Afghanistan. Guess what I'm saying is, ALL sides of that debate need to consider all the factors in the equation for a balanced perspective.

[Popsical]

Spot on DB on all counts.
The warrior v monitor situation has little historical use.
There would have been an escalation in ironclad developement, as it was, there was not the need to find out.

[csadn]

Yes, we bloodied George's nose. BUT, that might not have been the case without Boney in the Backyard--with the full force of the RN and many more Lobsterbacks available (especially first-rate troops), one could easily see it becoming either a bloody subjugation or an earlier Vietnam or 1980s Afghanistan. Guess what I'm saying is, ALL sides of that debate need to consider all the factors in the equation for a balanced perspective.

Indeed -- the realities of what Canada and the western (at the time) US were like put a limit on how many troops could be deployed (best I can figure, ~10,000 troops). However, the British had enough warm bodies, they could keep trying, and trying, and trying -- and "we only have to get lucky once".

However, the mention of the South-East-Asian Unpleasantness shows another reason why the British didn't keep trying, and the US didn't press the matter: After a quarter-century of trying to deal with France, the British (and damned-near everyone else) were psychologically and physically exhausted; "burned out", in the modern vernacular. The merchants (on both sides of 1812) wanted peace so they could get on with the business of doing business; the economies of all the players were wrecked (even Britain's -- troops don't produce anything which can be sold, so money funneled to them is a dead loss, in every sense).

[David Manley]

.....one could easily see it becoming either a bloody subjugation or an earlier Vietnam or 1980s Afghanistan.


I'm not seeing it. Britain wasn't interested in fighting the US no matter how badly the US wanted to. And in the absence of a threat from the Continent the US' causus belli wouldn't have existed anyway.


Maybe John Ericsson COULD have delivered a Warrior-killer. The fact is, he DIDN'T, because the will to create and deploy it wasn't there.

In the same way the RN didn't expend much effort on coastal ironclads suited to take on monitor type vessels - there was no need. Had there been it is likely they would have appeared on the scene very quickly. The example is there in the Baltic in the mid 1850s - the ocean going fleet fought a largely lacklustre campaign against the Russians on land, a new coastal fleet was ready in 1855 which did very well thanks, and an even bigger fleet was on the way for 1856 but was cancelled with the end of the war (Crimean war by backside, that conflict was won in the Baltic).

It brings to mind one of the things that annoys me about poorly constructed "alternate reality" fiction and game settings. In many cases the author/creator spends an inordinate amount of time and energy constructing what their favoured side would do in this alternate reality, but they are often too lazy to think about what their opponent's reaction would be, instead blindly assuming their course of action would be exactly as history had it.

[Diamondback]

Re "1800s Vietnam", again that assumes that for some reason the Crown had sufficient will to override the Commercial Class--you and Chris both raise good points from the respective pieces of the puzzle you focus on, and I was trying to be the peacemaker there.

Precisely the rub... once you hit a point of change in the timeline, you have to look at ALL the changes downstream, action and reaction, attack and counterattack. For example in Harrison's Stars and Stripes novels, was Victoria really so hysterical and unstable that without Albert's stabilizing influence Palmerston would have told the Commercial Class "suck it, I'm taking the Empire to war" just to shut her up? More to the point, would he have risked handing the Opposition a campaign issue to run on and topple his Government? And then there'd be the risks of further ripples, like maybe the Russians enter the game looking for some Crimean War payback... which wouldn't necessarily have to be direct military action, could just be intel support to The Folks Across The Pond.

[Coog]

Plus the fact that Coog reads different history to everybody else (apart from Chris)

:takecover::happy:

I just know when things get boring I can throw the War of 1812 out there and really stir the pot.:happy:

This is the first time that I can recall we got off into the Vietnam War with it.:question:

[David Manley]

Harrison's "Stars and Stripes" is very possibly the most dreadfully awfully contrived piece of tosh ever published in the genre of alt history and tarnishes the image of an otherwise fine writer. How could the creator of the "Stainless Steel Rat" pen such bilge? Popular opinion has it that he only did it for a bet.

[Coog]

Harrison's "Stars and Stripes" is very possibly the most dreadfully awfully contrived piece of tosh ever published in the genre of alt history and tarnishes the image of an otherwise fine writer. How could the creator of the "Stainless Steel Rat" pen such bilge? Popular opinion has it that he only did it for a bet.

Never read the series and probably never will. But from what I've gathered from reviews, sounds like the type of writings you can't take too seriously...you just read them for entertainment without trying to apply reality.

[David Manley]

They might be good if they were entertaining, but they aren't even that. I love HH's writing style, I've been reading his material since I was a youngster, having been introduced to Slippery Jim DiGriz in the mid 70s, but these were just mind numbingly awful. Its almost as though someone else wrote them

[Berthier]

Sorry to damage the historical egos of both the British and Americans here but there was only 1 campaign of any real importance in 1812 and it most definitely was not in the new world. :takecover::takecover:

In response to...:happy:
"I just know when things get boring I can throw the War of 1812 out there and really stir the pot.:happy:"

[David Manley]

However, the mention of the South-East-Asian Unpleasantness shows another reason why the British didn't keep trying,

Don't forget that in 1812 the British didn't even start trying. Commerce was king and most rational people on both "sides" recognised that there was far more to be made from the US and the UK being trading partners than opponents.

Thinking more along the lines of the "No Boney" thing, had that been the case it is possible (likely?) that the political geography of North America would have been very different. Without the need for France to raise money, no need to sell Louisiana. Without a war in Spain how different would Spanish colonial activities in North America have been? What an interesting departure point for some alt-history that could be.

[Coog]

They might be good if they were entertaining, but they aren't even that. I love HH's writing style, I've been reading his material since I was a youngster, having been introduced to Slippery Jim DiGriz in the mid 70s, but these were just mind numbingly awful. Its almost as though someone else wrote them

Like I said I seriously doubt I will ever read them. I just don't read science fiction, alternate history, or fantasy so I would be a poor judge if I did. For that matter I read very little fiction, with my favorite fiction work being Red Storm Rising.

[Popsical]

Ah, Red storm rising, one of the best books ever written IMO. Definately Clancy's best too.

As for alternate history books, i find them often disappointing. Too often the authors tend to make some unfathomable decision to keep the plot tickng to their own agenda, then they lose my interest. Turtledove's alien invasion in WW2 in which the Germans get themselves nuked out of existance for sod all point as an example.

[David Manley]

RSR is an excellent piece of work, IMHO, Clancy's best along with Hunt for Red October

[David Manley]

Ah, Red storm rising, one of the best books ever written IMO. Definately Clancy's best too.

As for alternate history books, i find them often disappointing. Too often the authors tend to make some unfathomable decision to keep the plot tickng to their own agenda, then they lose my interest. Turtledove's alien invasion in WW2 in which the Germans get themselves nuked out of existance for sod all point as an example.

Either that or the "good guys" enjoy some incredibly amazing - and awesomely convenient - piece of good luck which flips certain defeat into punch-the-air glorious success.

Humphrey Hawksley's "WW3 in the Far East" books (Dragon Strike and Dragon Fire) are well worth a read, if a little dated.

[Coog]

Because of Red Storm Rising, I started reading a few of the hypothetical Third World War books set in the 1980s. Although not quite the caliber of Red Storm Rising, I enjoyed Team Yankee, inspired by Hackett's classic The Third World War, just as much. Red Army was also an interesting read viewing the war from a Soviet perspective.

[David Manley]

First Clash is another good book in a similar vein

[Comte de Brueys]

With the lack of success by the British on land and water against the United States, one wonders if Napoleon was overrated.:hmmm:

:question:

Overrated?

Image a Robert E. Lee with the political abilties and political ambitions of a Napoleon Bonaparte, Bobby.

I think Richmond would be the capital of the 50 federal staes of the CSA today. :wink:


Plus the fact that Coog reads different history to everybody else (apart from Chris)

:takecover:

:happy:

[Diamondback]

Re Clancy, I was always partial to Without Remorse myself--but that may just be because having been through a catastrophic nervous breakdown myself, the man who would become Clark needing to piece himself back together is something I can identify with.

My take on S&S was, I thought it was meant to be written as a Hearst-Pulitzer yellow-journalism piece or a wartime propaganda rag--we all know how wartime "news" generally has little to do with reality, right? LOL Raised some interesting questions, but felt awful forced and contrived, and fell far short of the potential its premise had.

[Coog]

First Clash is another good book in a similar vein

Also in my library. A good read and an excellent sourcebook for the TO&E of the Canadians for the period.

[Coog]

:question:

Overrated?

Image a Robert E. Lee with the political abilties and political ambitions of a Napoleon Bonaparte, Bobby.

I think Richmond would be the capital of the 50 federal staes of the CSA today. :wink:



:happy:


I just know when things get boring I can throw the War of 1812 out there and really stir the pot.

I outdid myself this time! I managed to get a rise out of the French as well as the British!

[David Manley]

I outdid myself this time! I managed to get a rise out of the French as well as the British!

Pay attention there old chap, the good Compte is, of course a Bavarian, not of the French persuasion :happy:

[Coog]

Pay attention there old chap, the good Compte is, of course a Bavarian, not of the French persuasion :happy:

I was referring to Sven's site affiliation, as I do Daniel, in being "French." I do find it interesting that we do not have any active actual French members considering the size of the country and its rich history while we have members from many countries outside the UK and her former colonies. But then I really haven't noticed many at the Aerodrome either.

[David Manley]

They are probably too busy making love to make war(games) :wink:

[Arakus]

I was referring to Sven's site affiliation, as I do Daniel, in being "French." I do find it interesting that we do not have any active actual French members considering the size of the country and its rich history while we have members from many countries outside the UK and her former colonies. But then I really haven't noticed many at the Aerodrome either.

French players ( computer gamers too ) prefer french forum, as they don't like to speak/write english! ( not all but most of them )
In france there seems to be a general problem with the use of foreign languages, they have a radioquote, 60% from total in radio must be european and 40% from total must be french....

[csadn]

Harrison's "Stars and Stripes" is very possibly the most dreadfully awfully contrived piece of tosh ever published in the genre of alt history and tarnishes the image of an otherwise fine writer. How could the creator of the "Stainless Steel Rat" pen such bilge? Popular opinion has it that he only did it for a bet.

I suspect someone figured "given his age, it's possible he's going to drop dead before he finishes it; so we need to publish *now*", so they published his notes rather than a proper story.

Yes, I've read it; yes, I concur it's Rubbish. No, Vicky wasn't a shrieking psychotic harridan; she was more the retiring type. And Lord Palmerston would *never* have allowed Britain to become involved, not least after the Mongolian Cluster-F*** in the Crimean so recently concluded; textbook case of "the game ain't worth the candle". Now, Gladstone is another matter altogether -- best I can figure from the evidence I've seen: He wanted to see the US split into a mercantile North and an agrarian South, each mutually antagonistic, and thus unwilling and unable to trade directly; enter Britain as middleman, "making a fat pile of cash off the pair of them". (No, I don't believe he was looking at reclaiming the Colonies; even he wasn't that insane.)

To that end: I suspect Gladstone and his bunch were behind many of the loans, shipbuilding, and related matters Britain took on in favor of the South; while at the same time, Palmerston and *his* crowd were trying to help the *North* by blocking such endeavors; thus the seeming split-personality shown by Britain during the conflict.

Hell, *there's* a board game no one's made: The "secret war" of spies and diplomacy in Europe between North, South, and each side's supporters and fellow-travelers. Something in the _Diplomacy_/_Machiavelli_ vein? >:)

[Berthier]

The French are working through their agents, the world takeover will happen without anyone even noticing it, except for the better quality of bread, oh and cheese maybe the wine (though Australian wine is pretty good).....

[Arakus]

......except for the better quality of bread.......

Sorry, but i am from germany and we have have over 1000 types of bread, thats world record. French bread is baguette, nothing else, so not so good!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bread

[Diamondback]

I'm sorry... Moldy Cheese and Bugs, who eats THAT? LOL

[Kentop]

Moldy Cheese is redundant. Bugs add protein. Rounding the cape, you tend to savor those tidbits. Vivé La France.

[Coog]

They are probably too busy making love to make war(games) :wink:

Maybe its because they are so bad at real war they shy away from war games?

French war history:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3fttjTADAA

[Popsical]

Moldy cheese, pigeon (flying vermin), snails and frogs legs. Nope, im not seeing a particularly appetising reason to eat too often in France!
Bless 'em.

[David Manley]

Maybe its because they are so bad at real war they shy away from war games?

French war history:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3fttjTADAA

Maybe its because of this sort of thing pervading english speaking websites.

We in the UK have an excuse, having fought them for centuries (and, TBH, not done particularly well all the time up until the 1700s) - for a country that owes so much to the French the US do have a rather "cheeky" attitude towards them :happy:

btw, no, I'm not that enamoured by French food either, but c'est la vie

[Berthier]

Sorry, but i am from germany and we have have over 1000 types of bread, thats world record. French bread is baguette, nothing else, so not so good!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bread
Probably true Jorg, you should taste most of the bread here, it's pretty much universally ordinary. :sad:

[Berthier]

Moldy cheese, pigeon (flying vermin), snails and frogs legs. Nope, im not seeing a particularly appetising reason to eat too often in France!
Bless 'em.

Ah because British cuisine is soooo much better? :happy::happy::takecover:

[David Manley]

Ah because British cuisine is soooo much better? :happy::happy::takecover:

Roast beef and Yorkshire pudding.

Your argument is invalid :happy:

[Coog]

Maybe its because of this sort of thing pervading english speaking websites.

You can't take American comedy too seriously. It often does tend to be crass and stinging but as far as the French are concerned they have to look no further than how our own people, institutions, and culture is treated in the same fashion by our own comedians.

[Coog]

for a country that owes so much to the French

Are you referring to the French involvement in the American Revolution?

[Diamondback]

One, as they say "the truth hurts", and two, the French only helped us get our independence to retaliate for taking Canada in the Seven Years' War. Even the Louisiana Purchase was under false pretense 'cause Boneey figured "I'll just crush them and retake it eventually anyway"...

Remember, French foreign policy is institutionally sociopathic, in their own words: "France has neither allies nor enemies, only interests."

[David Manley]

One, as they say "the truth hurts", and two, the French only helped us get our independence to retaliate for taking Canada in the Seven Years' War. Even the Louisiana Purchase was under false pretense 'cause Boneey figured "I'll just crush them and retake it eventually anyway"...

Remember, French foreign policy is institutionally sociopathic, in their own words: "France has neither allies nor enemies, only interests."

That quote is also attributed to Henry Kissinger and Lord Palmerston so i guess the three of us have a lot more in common that perhaps we'd care to admit :happy:

I'd never seen anything suggesting Boney had plans to retake his former territory in North America. Got any more info on that? it sounds like another fascinating "what if?" (and a good excuse to break out my Napoleonic figures again!)

For a summary of French military endeavours (good and bad) that isn't that now infamous Google search, try here...

http://www.militaryfactory.com/battles/french_military_victories.asp

[David Manley]

You can't take American comedy too seriously. It often does tend to be crass and stinging but as far as the French are concerned they have to look no further than how our own people, institutions, and culture is treated in the same fashion by our own comedians.

Unfortunately it often doesn't come across as comedy. As you work your way around the internet it is quite possible, in fact probable, to come to the conclusion that many are being deadly serious

[Coog]

Unfortunately it often doesn't come across as comedy. As you work your way around the internet it is quite possible, in fact probable, to come to the conclusion that many are being deadly serious

I don't believe that "many" are serious. There are always a few people out there on any issue that are extremists and they do like the internet. The sad fact is that most Americans have no concept of history or current events and live in their own worlds, more influenced by pop culture, and not really concerned with the French in one way or the other.

The only time I can remember in recent history when there was a great "anti-French" sentiment was during the 1986 U.S. bombing of Libya due to its support of terrorist activities. France refused to allow U.S. F-111 fighter-bombers flying out of RAF Lakenheath and RAF Upper Heyford to fly over French air space, adding 2,800 km to the trip, on their way to their targets. I seriously doubt many Americans remember much about the raid, younger ones knowing absolutely nothing about it, particularly about the French issue.

[David Manley]

It came to the fore during the run up to GW2 when the French decided not to join the party. That was the point where "cheese eating surrender monkeys" became a popular nickname, the US went all out for "freedom fries" and "Stornin' Norman" quipped "going to war without the French is like going duck hunting without your accordion"

Inconveniently though the French played that one pretty smart :happy:

[Coog]

Inconveniently though the French played that one pretty smart :happy:

I guess the British didn't?

Seriously though, would have leaving Saddam in power been better? We'll never know. Perhaps the whole thing was a no win situation regardless of what was or wasn't done. In light of current events in other countries in the region one must ask if there actually is a solution to the problems there.

[Diamondback]

Actually, David, it was VP Cheney, not the late General Schwarzkopf. As for other attributions, well, clinical sociopath Heinz Kissinger ain't a hell of a lot better than those he once fled in my book (granted, largely for his advocacy of "depopulating" the Third World), so it is plausible from him too.

Well, maybe not specific plans, but he WAS arrogant enough to believe that he could and would eventually hold dominion over the entire world... maybe it would have been indirect by trying to turn the USA into a vassal or client-state, but he doesn't seem the type to walk away from a job half-done.

[7eat51]

RSR is an excellent piece of work, IMHO, Clancy's best along with Hunt for Red October

I found it curious that I enjoyed watching Hunt for Red October as much as I did. I took a class on film and one of the texts was on screenwriting. I realized how feel told of a story that film is, and, hence, my part of my enjoyment watching it. If such is true of the film adaptation ...


The sad fact is that most Americans have no concept of history or current events and live in their own worlds, more influenced by pop culture, and not really concerned with the French in one way or the other.

I am amazed at the degree of historical, political, economical, current event, and cultural illiteracy I see each day teaching at the collegiate level. The more I see federal oversight of public education, the more I think such illiteracy will continue, and possibly worsen; I think federal standards tend toward lower standards to accommodate the diversity among school children, and I am not referring to demographic diversity but ability, familial support, etc. Add to this the access and proliferation of online media, critical thinking, knowledge, and wisdom are suffering. I see students confusing expression for meaningful communication, expression for information, etc. Some of the biggest challenges we face as teachers are information literacy and passion or concern.


It came to the fore during the run up to GW2 when the French decided not to join the party. That was the point where "cheese eating surrender monkeys" became a popular nickname, the US went all out for "freedom fries" and "Stornin' Norman" quipped "going to war without the French is like going duck hunting without your accordion"

As far as the populace went, such statements had short-term effect at best. In the U.S., we seem to have short attention spans and memories. I think it is one of the effects of not having a long, more homogenous history; we don't seem to have a broadly held national identity. Like anything, this has pros and cons.

As for food, I am very thankful to be of Italian descent, and that I grew up in a very diverse city - Chicago. Having friends from 50+ nations, and a wife from Hong Kong, I have spent my life eating well. Now if only I exercised more.

[David Manley]

Actually, David, it was VP Cheney, not the late General Schwarzkopf.

Its generally attributed to the General. Dick probably pinched it

http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/n/norman_schwarzkopf.html

Being a polly he would have been hard pressed to come up with anything as witty as the good general :happy:

[David Manley]

As far as the populace went, such statements had short-term effect at best.....

maybe its a military thing, still seems pretty comonplace there.

Oh, and on TMP :)

[7eat51]

maybe its a military thing, still seems pretty comonplace there.

Oh, and on TMP :)

I think, this too, exemplifies the disconnect between those who are engaged in some fashion with military history and the general populace. I have noticed that individuals who play wargames or read military history are a different breed than most. It seems such players are more aware, have stronger opinions, and are not swayed as easily, i.e. they hold a given opinion longer - this does not mean their opinions are correct. In the U.S., I venture to guess, such individuals are a very small minority or subculture. I fear the proliferation of reality television shows is an indication of many American conversations - much ado about nothing. This might not be, though, solely an American phenomenon.

[csadn]

maybe its a military thing, still seems pretty comonplace there.

Most of the mil-folk I know have long memories, and are not the sort to forget when "the Allies turned away".

Hell, when Toyota decided to enter NASCAR's Cup level, I saw signs invoking Pearl Harbor....

Me? I'm of Celtic stock -- we did not invent vendetta; we *perfected* it. ;)

[DeRuyter]

It came to the fore during the run up to GW2 when the French decided not to join the party. That was the point where "cheese eating surrender monkeys" became a popular nickname, the US went all out for "freedom fries" and "Stornin' Norman" quipped "going to war without the French is like going duck hunting without your accordion"



The irony is that "French Fries" are not really French at all, but Belgian! :sly:

[7eat51]

The irony is that "French Fries" are not really French at all, but Belgian! :sly:

As is Hercule Poirot.

[Popsical]

We English have a lengthy history of war against our neighbouring euro countries.
Having beaten most of them more than once, we tend to mock them in our comedy, probably too much.
This does help to make a lot of folk happier about Englands status in the world.
Our poor performance in many popular sports tends to lend itself to overt mocking of the old enemies.
You in the US never cease to impress me with your mixed fanbase crowds at sports events, in europe this would result in blood shed on a small war scale!

[csadn]

You in the US never cease to impress me with your mixed fanbase crowds at sports events, in europe this would result in blood shed on a small war scale!

Not sure how accurate it is, but the best explanation I've heard for this is: "Americans have Europe's example to work from as to why doing so is a REALLY BAD IDEA, and so do not do it".

[Popsical]

An example would be in "soccer" , portsmouth fc were to play southampton with mixed crowds, the police would have to call on the royal marines to quell the violence!
There is only 20 odd miles between the two cities and no wars have been fought between them.
Its a similar story across europe.
The french arent universally loved across europe either, many countries remember old boney.

[Diamondback]

What's that old saying? "I went to a riot and a football game broke out..."? :p

[7eat51]

You in the US never cease to impress me with your mixed fanbase crowds at sports events, in europe this would result in blood shed on a small war scale!

You've never been to Philadelphia, the city of "brotherly love".

[Diamondback]

You've never been to Philadelphia, the city of "brotherly love".
Or South-Central or East LA, or Chicago after Basketball Season... LOL

Or Seattle, whenever there's something big like WTO in town.

[7eat51]

or Chicago after Basketball Season

That was an embarrassment. Any excuse to behave poorly, I guess.

At least Packers fans need not worry coming to Soldiers Field. Philly seems to be another matter.

[DeRuyter]

What's that old saying? "I went to a riot and a football game broke out..."? :p

Clever derivation on the original; "I went to a fight and a hockey game broke out".

[DeRuyter]

You in the US never cease to impress me with your mixed fanbase crowds at sports events, in europe this would result in blood shed on a small war scale!

Actually in US soccer we do have away supporters sections, although not to the extent as in the UK. I went to an Arsenal game and the police encircled the section. Of course once one got down to the tube stops the fans were completely mixed!

We do have extra security for rivalry matches like when the New York Red Bulls come to town!


Not sure how accurate it is, but the best explanation I've heard for this is: "Americans have Europe's example to work from as to why doing so is a REALLY BAD IDEA, and so do not do it".

Given the occasional beating or death of a football (American version) fan maybe it is a good idea!


You've never been to Philadelphia, the city of "brotherly love".

Hey I resemble that remark!! Philly fans may boo their own teams or verbally joust with away fans, but you don't hear of someone getting beaten to death as in LA. I often see fans with New York Rangers, Boston Bruins or NJ Devils jerseys at hockey game mingling with Flyers fans. My brother is a Giants fan and will go to games in Philly.

At Union games the choicest remarks from the supporters are reserved for the refs! I am sure everyone will be on their best behavior tonight for the US Open Cup final when we beat Seattle!! Go the U!

[Coog]

If God had wanted man to play soccer, he wouldn't have given us arms.

Mike Ditka

[csadn]

And this is why I love auto racing -- apart from the a**clowns in the infield at Talladega ("The unshaven armpit of NASCAR"), and that imbecile who showed up to an event wearing a "No N*****s In NASCAR" shirt, the fans are well-behaved. Best example: There was an outbreak of idiots showing displeasure over races ending under caution by throwing things onto the track. At Pocono, some bozo nailed the flagman in the back of the head with a cooler; the cops had no problem finding him, as everyone around him was pointing at him, and several people were making sure he couldn't leave....

[Popsical]

I went to see panathaniakos versus olympiakos in athens, you guys dont know what team hatred is all about till you see these kid of matches first hand!
Personally i dont get it at all, but a small portion of "fans" seem to get a real kick from a ruck.

[DeRuyter]

If God had wanted man to play soccer, he wouldn't have given us arms.

Mike Ditka

Then why call it "football" when alas very little action involves using the foot to contact the ball, which quite more resembles an egg than a real ball.