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Andy Blozinski
05-25-2014, 22:30
I'm probably going shopping for this tomorrow. Here's the concept:
Make a stand that holds 1-2 pieces of posterboard. The posterboard goes down the middle of the map so the two sides can't see each other.
It's a morning fight and a fog bank is obscuring everyone's view.
Both sides start wherever they want on their board edge.
When the first ship of either side crosses the wall, that's the simplistic cue that the morning sun has warmed the area up enough and burned off the fog enough so that everyone can at least see well enough. Just lift the wall out of the way. This will be even better with two card plotting. They'll still have one more turn of moving they can't change for an increased "oh sh****t!" factor if anyone suddenly finds themself very close.

fredmiracle
05-26-2014, 00:30
that is a cool idea!

7eat51
05-26-2014, 06:22
I like the concept, Andy. It will be interesting to see what modifications, if any, occur once implemented.

One of the games I am running for Origins starts with fog lifting. I am working through the setup mechanism. I have not finalized whether I will do something similar to what you describe here, or position the ships on the table before the game in such a way that the battle start immediately with some form of surprise actions involved.

David Manley
05-26-2014, 06:25
Cool idea indeed. I recall one of our GMs used something similar for a Napoleonic land game some years ago with armies advancing into a fog-filled valley. Much hilarity (and carnage) ensued!

7eat51
05-26-2014, 06:34
As I think about this more, I wonder if it would be advantageous at all to have each side turn away when the other side moves its ships so each side cannot see the relative positions of the oncoming ships.

Jack Aubrey
05-26-2014, 08:34
fantastic idea, just build a fogbank at once :happy:

Nightmoss
05-26-2014, 08:38
I like this too! Ship classes will be relatively similar I'd guess? A 1st rate vs. a sloop might be a bit unfair. On the other hand the goal for the sloop might then change? Keep us posted.

Andy Blozinski
05-26-2014, 09:30
As I think about this more, I wonder if it would be advantageous at all to have each side turn away when the other side moves its ships so each side cannot see the relative positions of the oncoming ships.
I'm kind of undecided on this part. I'll have to see how much of a visual obstruction the poster boards are if everyone remains seated. I was also originally toying with giving players hints of a vague direction if they were within gun range before the fog lifted, but then I thought maybe body motions of moving ships might end up being all the vague hint they needed that they were getting close to....something.
I'm going to have both sides evenly matched, but all ships will not be the same class. It's perfectly possible that a frigate might end up popping up next to a SOL. That makes for increased "oh sh****t!" factor for the frigate, unless he's not alone.

7eat51
05-26-2014, 09:45
I like the idea of matched sides, especially if it is a straightforward battle, even if, as you say, unmatched ships find themselves in close range at the beginning. Part of the subsequent fun would be the maneuvering to more advantageous positions, including a measure of fleeing and reengaging elsewhere.

Seated? I have yet to see this happen early on in games. Everyone is usually standing. Maybe having a smaller section of the table to be concerned about and maneuvering within would facilitate sitting.

When are you playing this? I leave for Origins on the 11th, so any shared experience before then would be appreciated.

I will play test a couple of versions over the next two weeks, and share our experiences as well.

Andy Blozinski
05-26-2014, 10:26
I like the idea of matched sides, especially if it is a straightforward battle, even if, as you say, unmatched ships find themselves in close range at the beginning. Part of the subsequent fun would be the maneuvering to more advantageous positions, including a measure of fleeing and reengaging elsewhere.

Seated? I have yet to see this happen early on in games. Everyone is usually standing. Maybe having a smaller section of the table to be concerned about and maneuvering within would facilitate sitting.

When are you playing this? I leave for Origins on the 11th, so any shared experience before then would be appreciated.

I will play test a couple of versions over the next two weeks, and share our experiences as well.
I'll probably run a local play test at the VA hall next month. I figure it will be easy for everyone to be seated at first because their ships will be nearer their edge of the table. Once the halfway point is reached and people are encouraged to stand up to reach more, it won't matter if they stand up.

kippryon
05-26-2014, 11:17
Fog is Fun! Here's a photo of what we do:

Get some Wax Paper.
Cut into shape(s) you want.
Attach to game surface using double-back clear tape.

Insofar as rule 'variations', we usually:
Reduce Range (i.e., short only, etc...)
Reduce Damage, No 'Aim High' allowed, etc... (i.e., to represent 'visibility impaired')

Also, at start of game, only the Movement Stands (with no ships on them) are used - Until the ship is 'Sighted'. Once 'Sighted' - the model is placed on the stand.
We found that works better than a 'screen'.

Of course, many try to get 'on the edge' of the fog, so that they can shoot out of it without penalty. Those ships not in the fog - shooting at a ship 'in' the fog - obviously do not suffer the Range penalty, but do have the 'Visibility Impaired' ones.

Makes for some Fun Fog Fights..!!

Nightmoss
05-26-2014, 11:36
As I think about this more, I wonder if it would be advantageous at all to have each side turn away when the other side moves its ships so each side cannot see the relative positions of the oncoming ships.

If you have more than one ship per side it might not matter as much as people on both sides of the board will be moving back and forth. 1 vs. 1 would be easier to figure out relative areas of ship placement just based on where people are standing when they move their ships?

If you want real fog of war neither side should get any kind of clue as to where the ships are initially placed or where body movement while shifting ships would telegraph clues to the opposite side?

One of the most exciting games I ever played at GenCon was a double blind setup where the GM's mediated play. We never saw the other players placement or movement until contact. We also couldn't communicate with our side unless they were in eyesight range for signaling (no radios allowed in this particular games).

Speaking of signaling, did sailing ships of this period use bells or horns while operating in dense fog?

kippryon
05-26-2014, 12:19
If you have more than one ship per side it might not matter as much as people on both sides of the board will be moving back and forth. 1 vs. 1 would be easier to figure out relative areas of ship placement just based on where people are standing when they move their ships?

If you want real fog of war neither side should get any kind of clue as to where the ships are initially placed or where body movement while shifting ships would telegraph clues to the opposite side?

One of the most exciting games I ever played at GenCon was a double blind setup where the GM's mediated play. We never saw the other players placement or movement until contact. We also couldn't communicate with our side unless they were in eyesight range for signaling (no radios allowed in this particular games).

Speaking of signaling, did sailing ships of this period use bells or horns while operating in dense fog?

I have been in convention games where a similar situation was done. However, it required more than 1 GM, and separate rooms, each with the same tabletop terrain setup:
Team A in Room 1 with their units, Team B in Room 2 with their units- and in the Common Room (accessible by both teams), where the 'Sighted' units were placed.
Fun, realistic...but a LOT of work on the GM's part.

The only other one which came close (run by 1 GM) was one in which he had a HUGE box top (4' x 6') which he put over the units, depending on which Team who's turn it was.
However - it required the other team to leave the room when not their turn.
It worked...somewhat, but getting the other team back together became a hassle as the game went on, AND 'spectator participation' was, sadly, poor.

kippryon
05-26-2014, 12:25
Fog is Fun! Here's a photo of what we do:

Get some Wax Paper.
Cut into shape(s) you want.
Attach to game surface using double-back clear tape.

Insofar as rule 'variations', we usually:
Reduce Range (i.e., short only, etc...)
Reduce Damage, No 'Aim High' allowed, etc... (i.e., to represent 'visibility impaired')

Also, at start of game, only the Movement Stands (with no ships on them) are used - Until the ship is 'Sighted'. Once 'Sighted' - the model is placed on the stand.
We found that works better than a 'screen'.

Of course, many try to get 'on the edge' of the fog, so that they can shoot out of it without penalty. Those ships not in the fog - shooting at a ship 'in' the fog - obviously do not suffer the Range penalty, but do have the 'Visibility Impaired' ones.

Makes for some Fun Fog Fights..!!

OH!... Forgot to mention that when we use the 'Movement stand only until sighted' - We sometimes use 2 movement stands for each ship, only one of which is the 'real' ship (placing a piece of coloured tape on the bottom), which is revealed when 'sighted'. Adds just a touch more 'uncertainty' to the actual disposition of the ships.

Nightmoss
05-26-2014, 12:34
I have been in convention games where a similar situation was done. However, it required more than 1 GM, and separate rooms, each with the same tabletop terrain setup:
Team A in Room 1 with their units, Team B in Room 2 with their units- and in the Common Room (accessible by both teams), where the 'Sighted' units were placed.
Fun, realistic...but a LOT of work on the GM's part.

The only other one which came close (run by 1 GM) was one in which he had a HUGE box top (4' x 6') which he put over the units, depending on which Team who's turn it was.
However - it required the other team to leave the room when not their turn.
It worked...somewhat, but getting the other team back together became a hassle as the game went on, AND 'spectator participation' was, sadly, poor.

It was a LOT of work for several GM's, but the 'immersion' for a game has never been equaled. The added bonus for us was seeing just how much fun the GM's were having at the same time as us.

Andy's Fog scenario, along with the examples and suggestions by you and Eric, will be fun to watch develop.

Andy Blozinski
05-26-2014, 17:33
This was actually really easy and cheap to make. It's pretty light and easy to transport too. By suggestion of the wife, we made a 1/2" CPVC frame. One support each end and one in the middle. We did a sit down table test and it didn't really need to go 3 feet tall, so it's just set up to drape the 45" wide fabric over the top of the rail. The gal at the fabric store cut my fabric longer than advertised, so it's hanging a bit over at the ends. I might add extensions later. Here's the photo of the fog bank before we glued the vertical sections together (the horizontal pieces aren't glued for compact breakdown).
9994

Nightmoss
05-26-2014, 18:27
Looks great, Andy! Thanks for the pic and the explanation. :thumbsup:

Andy Blozinski
05-26-2014, 20:02
Here's how it all breaks down:
9995

7eat51
05-26-2014, 21:34
Kipp, that is a pretty neat idea. I will definitely try that in a game we play at the house. If it works well for us, I will use it at a con. Though it does not mimic fog-of-war as much as being blind to opponents, it is quite easy to implement, and based on your photo, provides some measure of terrain effect. This could be very interesting if there is a target on one side, such as a shore battery that needs to be taken out. The wax-paper fog brings a measure of tactical complexity to the game.

Jim, I think what you describe would be great for one of our Rockford gatherings. There is no concern for spectators, no time restrictions, etc. I think some combo of your experience and Andy's could work for Origins (this is where I would set up something like Andy's curtain, but ask folks to turn around during the opposite's movement, or some such arrangement), and if that looks too unwieldy given our conditions there, then Kipp's idea could be a good solution. The Origin's game utilizing fog is a 2-hour game, so the mechanism cannot chew up much time. As I mentioned elsewhere, I am very interested in each game moving toward completion, than having a few turns of highly detailed play, but the narrative becoming basically meaningless.

Very nice work, Andy. I like how you constructed the frame. :thumbsup:

Пилот
05-27-2014, 03:15
Good idea, Andy! Frame works well, I can see.

Andy Blozinski
06-18-2014, 21:34
I just signed up to run this at:
http://www.thehoustoncon.com/home.html

Depending on how many people sign up, I might throw in the pirates as the objective right in the middle of it.

fredmiracle
06-19-2014, 00:43
I just signed up to run this at:
http://www.thehoustoncon.com/home.html

Depending on how many people sign up, I might throw in the pirates as the objective right in the middle of it.

Hope we get a report with pictures :wink:

7eat51
06-19-2014, 07:24
Andy, let us know how it goes.

I did a fog scenario in which I had one side tell me where they wanted their ships positioned, and then had the other side put their ships on the mat, followed by putting the pre-positioned ships. Folks liked the idea, and the initial placement created some interesting effects. I will tweak the scheme for future scenarios; it is amazing what players think of that never crossed my mind.

Andy Blozinski
06-19-2014, 17:24
Andy, let us know how it goes.

I did a fog scenario in which I had one side tell me where they wanted their ships positioned, and then had the other side put their ships on the mat, followed by putting the pre-positioned ships. Folks liked the idea, and the initial placement created some interesting effects. I will tweak the scheme for future scenarios; it is amazing what players think of that never crossed my mind.
Oh wow..that's a pretty simple way to do it!

7eat51
06-19-2014, 21:16
Oh wow..that's a pretty simple way to do it!

It worked really well. One thing about the way I did it is that it allows placement anywhere the GM allows.

Your setup has a nice visual factor, though. I am keenly interested in hearing how it goes, including the physicality of it. I think the players will have fun with the blind setup. Your setup reminds me a bit of Stratego, not knowing what lies ahead. I imagine when you pull the curtain back there will be some groans as people see the position of the ships.

What kind of story setup will you give? I found that the narratives can guide players in interesting ways, but they can still surprise you in unforeseeable ways.

Here's to a successful game, Andy - :rum:

Andy Blozinski
06-30-2014, 17:06
They finally got the listing up:
https://www.warhorn.net/events/houstoncon-2014/schedule/2014/08/09

ChyronDave
07-15-2014, 20:32
Fog is Fun! Here's a photo of what we do:

Get some Wax Paper.
Cut into shape(s) you want.
Attach to game surface using double-back clear tape.

Insofar as rule 'variations', we usually:
Reduce Range (i.e., short only, etc...)
Reduce Damage, No 'Aim High' allowed, etc... (i.e., to represent 'visibility impaired')

Also, at start of game, only the Movement Stands (with no ships on them) are used - Until the ship is 'Sighted'. Once 'Sighted' - the model is placed on the stand.
We found that works better than a 'screen'.

Of course, many try to get 'on the edge' of the fog, so that they can shoot out of it without penalty. Those ships not in the fog - shooting at a ship 'in' the fog - obviously do not suffer the Range penalty, but do have the 'Visibility Impaired' ones.

Makes for some Fun Fog Fights..!!

I like this idea. Once the "sailors" in my area are comfortable with the game, I might suggest adding this as well.

Naharaht
07-19-2014, 21:13
But presumably the opposition can still see where the Movement stands are, unless you cover them with a cloth?

ChyronDave
07-19-2014, 23:04
But presumably the opposition can still see where the Movement stands are, unless you cover them with a cloth?

I don't think that is that much of an issue. Both Attack Wing and X-Wing have cloaking rules where you still see the ships on the playing field. I would think that the range adjustments would be enough to offset the lack of visibility in the fog bank.

Andy Blozinski
07-20-2014, 12:43
I don't think that is that much of an issue. Both Attack Wing and X-Wing have cloaking rules where you still see the ships on the playing field. I would think that the range adjustments would be enough to offset the lack of visibility in the fog bank.
You're missing the point that everyone can still see their exact position.

ChyronDave
07-20-2014, 20:59
You're missing the point that everyone can still see their exact position.

It is the same way in both of the other games. You can see exactly where the other ships are and determine if you can fire on them or not. The only difference is that in those games, the implied lack of visibility from their cloaking devices is measured in extra defense dice, where in Sails, it is measured in increased range.

Perhaps in addition to the increased range (in a fog, B=A), damage only comes from half of the available cannons rounded down (7 becomes 3, 2 becomes 1). This could be an effective way of showing blindly firing into the fog at a target, even if the target is visible on the game table.

Andy Blozinski
07-20-2014, 22:18
It is the same way in both of the other games. You can see exactly where the other ships are and determine if you can fire on them or not. The only difference is that in those games, the implied lack of visibility from their cloaking devices is measured in extra defense dice, where in Sails, it is measured in increased range.

Perhaps in addition to the increased range (in a fog, B=A), damage only comes from half of the available cannons rounded down (7 becomes 3, 2 becomes 1). This could be an effective way of showing blindly firing into the fog at a target, even if the target is visible on the game table.
Implied lack of visibility by artificially increasing range or or weakening damage is in no way an effective substitute for the reality of not knowing where the enemy is. Some gamers can't deal with not knowing where the exact position of everything is. The practical nature of gaming means this is generally the only way to represent things anyways.
Truly not knowing where your enemy is specifically located is a whole different mental experience.

Bos'n
06-02-2015, 17:25
Ok guys and gals,

I used this scenario last night and had a good time. Our group seemed shaken by the lack of visibility and had a lot of questions both before and during. The problem may have been the person giving the directions. :embarass: You may want to play test the scenario and tweet the rules a bit.

This game was so well balanced that our identical twins both went out on same turn. :drinks:

Enjoy this scenario, we did. :minis:

Bob. :salute:

Pseudotheist
06-02-2015, 18:33
Ok guys and gals,

I used this scenario last night and had a good time. Our group seemed shaken by the lack of visibility and had a lot of questions both before and during. The problem may have been the person giving the directions. :embarass: You may want to play test the scenario and tweet the rules a bit.

This game was so well balanced that our identical twins both went out on same turn. :drinks:
If only they weren't both on my side...

I'm pretty sure any problem was with the explanation/understanding of the scenario. From this it's pretty clear that no re-planning is intended.

Just lift the wall out of the way. This will be even better with two card plotting. They'll still have one more turn of moving they can't change for an increased "oh sh****t!" factor if anyone suddenly finds themself very close.

Naharaht
06-02-2015, 21:16
It would be more realistic if there were multiple curtains to allow for gradual revelation and your own teams lead ship disappearing into the fog but that would make it very complicated.

John Paul
06-03-2015, 01:32
You could make the dividing curtain (fog bank) tall enough that even when standing opponents can't see one another!! That helps increase the "fear" factor, and will help fill the ship Captains with trepidation while trying to complete their orders! The unknown they don't know!!!! :thumbsup:

You might also consider adding a "bonus First Move and First Fire" to the first Captain that pierces the fog Bank, while his opponent is unable to respond till he executes his second movement card!

All in all an excellent scenario idea!!!! Wrought with danger, and surprise!! :shock:

Mark Kaiser
06-04-2015, 02:29
It would be more realistic if there were multiple curtains to allow for gradual revelation and your own teams lead ship disappearing into the fog but that would make it very complicated.

I like the idea of multiple curtains the best, simulating density with range. As one ship sails through remove the curtain temporarily, say for one round, then return it. Who knows what will come out of the fog next kind of thing. Gives a short skirmish corridor as well. Allow ships normal fire through the fog if they wish by sliding ruler under curtain, and guesstimation if the odd "in the way" occurs. By far, the best fog setup i've seen, and would make some damn fine scenarios! Excellent idea Andy, and wife, very spot on! (Just be careful no one goes 'Oops and dominoes the screens!):thumbsup::sly::girlie:ps throw in some sand bars or shoals in between for some real fun!

Nightmoss
06-04-2015, 09:42
If one had the extra components, space and GM's I think a double blind board game set up would be an interesting approach? I think it's been mentioned before, but I've not heard of anyone who's actually tried it yet for SoG.

I do recall double blind land warfare board gaming at Gen Con. Some nice information on BBG. https://boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/1483/double-blind-land-warfare-wargames

And I've owned Midway for years, which you can double blind if you find a willing referee. https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/2250/midway

Bos'n
06-06-2015, 18:19
I'm probably going shopping for this tomorrow. Here's the concept:
Make a stand that holds 1-2 pieces of posterboard. The posterboard goes down the middle of the map so the two sides can't see each other.
It's a morning fight and a fog bank is obscuring everyone's view.
Both sides start wherever they want on their board edge.
When the first ship of either side crosses the wall, that's the simplistic cue that the morning sun has warmed the area up enough and burned off the fog enough so that everyone can at least see well enough. Just lift the wall out of the way. This will be even better with two card plotting. They'll still have one more turn of moving they can't change for an increased "oh sh****t!" factor if anyone suddenly finds themself very close.

Andy,

I made a barrier out of black foam board. I used black electricians tape so that the four 24 in. by 18 in. panels folded together for storage. The next time I was in the store, I saw some presentation boards that could expand to make a 50 in. by 36 in. screen. That seemed like a perfect solution to the problem. You buy it, expand it, and play.

The Savage Mill group loved it.

Thanks for this great idea,

Bob

Andy Blozinski
06-07-2015, 07:53
After a few attendance misfires, I got a good sized group and ran this at Mag-Con a few months back. It worked out pretty well and as intended. I also let the players have a a few shoals they could place after the game started.