Veer Value Reminder

[Comte de Brueys]

We noticed that it’s sometimes hard to remember the veer value of the last played maneuver.

Normally it shouldn’t be a problem, especially with frigates, but things get complicated with the advance rules, rudder damages, etc...

We had most problems when we replaced a normal maneuver with a red border maneuver and the ship was taken aback two times in a row. (You know that your movement planing has influence on the way it's taken aback, too. :wink:)

First we layed the used movement card right beside the ships map, but if you want to plan the same maneuver again for a continous turn to the right/left or a continuos straight forward sailing... :Arrrr:

So we modify the game turn step number 3 a little bit:

1) Planing
2) Action phase
3) reveal movement card / adjust veer value / Movement
4) Combat
5) Reloading

Not a big thing for an experienced player, but useful for new sailors (basic rules) and as an orientation for veterans, that everyone steers his ship the right way.

http://www.sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=9800&d=1399531528

Colored D10 work fine to adjust the veer value.

I think this will become more important with the upcoming 1st rate SoLs.

http://www.sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=9799&d=1399531528

[Ducky]

Very usefull, especially for starting players!

[Diamondback]

Actually, I had an idea for a tool here... basically something like a stereo's VU meters, but with zero at the center and you manually point the "rudder" indicator to the veer value of the last card played. Maybe even different "rudders" showing the acceptable maneuver ranges for different ships' veer ratings...

Say your last card played was a Left 5, and your ship has a Veer 2. Your rudder "needle" would be on -5, and the wedge indicating acceptable veer values for next card would cover everything from -3 to -7. The indicator base would be a half-round, I figure, with the maximum values being whatever the highest veer-value cards conceivable for the game being the flat edge.

[Nightmoss]

Actually, I had an idea for a tool here... basically something like a stereo's VU meters, but with zero at the center and you manually point the "rudder" indicator to the veer value of the last card played. Maybe even different "rudders" showing the acceptable maneuver ranges for different ships' veer ratings...

Say your last card played was a Left 5, and your ship has a Veer 2. Your rudder "needle" would be on -5, and the wedge indicating acceptable veer values for next card would cover everything from -3 to -7. The indicator base would be a half-round, I figure, with the maximum values being whatever the highest veer-value cards conceivable for the game being the flat edge.

I like this idea! Perhaps someone with access to lots of wood and a laser engraver might be able to test this out? :sly:

Failing that Sven's idea with dice works well too.

[Пилот]

Sven,
very good thinking and fine improvement. Very useful idea, using simple tool.

D-back,
Also interesting, gives lots of opportunities for someone whose nickname implies command over regiment in some other forum :wink:.

[Diamondback]

You're gonna laugh at this... we've actually discussed a few concepts for 3d WGF/WGS terrain/accessories, the rub was the costs involved in translating my 3d models into cut wood. (I had designed a complete miniature airfield to fold up into its own storage box, with storage for cards, bases and a few planes. Looked cool, design concept was cool, operating concept was sound, but logistically it was a little... "practicality challenged.")

Alternatively, a veer indicator could be made similar to that concept but designed to look more like a ship's wheel with three holes in the outer ring marking last maneuver, left veer limit and right veer limit, and you just turn the wheel to the veer rating of last card played. Still needs an "upper limit" of Left/Right Full Rudder determined, though...

Or use the original concept, made to look like a tiller and rudder from above, for smaller ships and the "wheel" for bigger ones.

[Пилот]

Why to laugh? Actually, many good ideas were stuck at that point.

Rudder looking veer marker is at least attractive concept, and could work, too.

[Comte de Brueys]

Interesting thoughts, comrades.

[Naharaht]

Using a d10 is a very good idea, Sven! :thumbsup:

[Diamondback]

The other problem with the idea I had is, you need a different wedge or wheel for each Veer rating, and I've proposed as a special damage mechanic or a way to differentiate less-maneuverable ships having a lower Veer rating to one side--for example, some ships had a rep for turning more readily to one side than the other, so Differential Veer would be an easy way to do that without any new mechanics.

[Nightmoss]

The other problem with the idea I had is, you need a different wedge or wheel for each Veer rating, and I've proposed as a special damage mechanic or a way to differentiate less-maneuverable ships having a lower Veer rating to one side--for example, some ships had a rep for turning more readily to one side than the other, so Differential Veer would be an easy way to do that without any new mechanics.

Isn't that a premise of maneuvering in Wings too? Certain sharp turns just don't appear in the decks (guessing this has something to do with engine torque?).

[7eat51]

Yes, engine torque.

Unless some sort of damage affects maneuverability, typically, ships can use any card as long as they don't go from the smallest to the largest veer rating, or visa-versa, back-to-back.

[David Manley]

I guess you could also vary the veer rating depending on whether the ship was turning towards of way from the wind

[Diamondback]

True, there are any number of ways we can model all kinds of things with different stats tweaks--the example i was thinking of was if say one ship had a reputation for very poor handling compared to other ships built to the same nominal design, knock off 1 Veer and shave a few points off the cost, conversely give one with exceptional handling a +1 Veer. Maybe if consistent +1/-1 is too powerful/crippling require a chit draw before planning the card to tell you if you take the bonus/penalty.

David raises a very good idea for a "Heavy Weather" optional rule--I could easily see a +1 Veer turning to parallel the wind (whether with or against) and a -1 against--which gives me an idea...

Optional Heavy Weather House Rule: When running across the wind (more than 45* outside of either directly with or directly against), lose 1 Veer. When running Against the Wind, use the movement path 1 sail setting below your current selection; when running With, 1 sail setting above.

[fredmiracle]

Unless some sort of damage affects maneuverability, typically, ships can use any card as long as they don't go from the smallest to the largest veer rating, or visa-versa, back-to-back.

The veer effects are never huge, but they vary a bit more from class to class than I had realized.

I put together a summary of the different decks. Absent rudder damage, here's how veer affects them (assuming I didn't make any mistakes):
- no cards ever blocked = H (Royal George)
- up to 1 card blocked = B (Temeriere), D (Berwick), F (Ocean)
- up to 2 cards blocked = C (Amazon), G (Swan), E (Hebe)
- up to 3 cards blocked = A (Concorde)



Deck
Cards
Max Port
Max Star.
Veer
Speed*
Close Haul**


G (Swan)
37
0
10
8
50
35


C (Amazon)
37
0
10
8
46
40


A (Concorde)
37
0
10
7
43
40


E (Hebe)
33
1
9
6
40
40


D (Berwick)
29
2
8
5
35
50


B (Temeriere)
29
2
8
5
32
50


H (Royal George)
25
3
7
4
30
55


F (Ocean)
25
3
7
3
28
50



* = length of straight-5 card middle arrow, in mm (to all of these, of course, is added an entire card length -- 75mm)
** = how close to the wind the ship can sail, in degrees (i.e. angle of red "aback" wedge from dead ahead to red/yellow edge)


One interesting little side note is that at battle sails, sailing straight ahead, the fastest ship is about 1.5 times the speed of the slowest ship.

[Nightmoss]

Would crew damage ever have an effect on Veer? Probably a complexity not needed, but if you lose crew you might lose the ability to maneuver beyond just sail settings?

[Jason]

This is an excellent resource Fred, gives my inner theoretician something to chew on :) Thank you for compiling these stats.

Jim, I believe that the ability to manouver was more dependent on someone keeping an eye on the helm in the midst of battle, and in my opinion, the crew damage boxes on the ships log represent about half of the crew maximum - a ship would strike its colors with so many losses, still having hundreds of hands on board, some of whom could still pull bracers (I refered to Keiths famous post about rigging, and hope thats the correct name for ropes you use to adjust yards and corresponding sails to the wind). Damage to sails and rigging, and most importantly, the rudder, was far more dangerous for the ship's manouverability than loss of crew. Prize ships were, as far as know, commonly sailed by skeleton crews of dozens. Having said that, the house rule that Fred has just started a thread about, might have some impact on tacking ability in regard to crew loss. When every odd sailor on deck lies wounded or dying, it might be far more difficult to properly execute a tack, than to drive a ship along the wind. I know that a sailboat is no comparison to a SOL, but in my experience, you can extensively change course with a stable wind, without adjusting sail.

[Diamondback]

Also, I'm starting to work up thoughts for sketching out a prototype Rudder Veer Reminder in my CAD program--think something like a protractor for a base shape. What would you all call a good size for it? 2" across, 3 or bigger? I'd like to keep it small, but at the same time big enough to be clearly read and for us with ten thumbs to be able to work with the parts.

[Nightmoss]

Also, I'm starting to work up thoughts for sketching out a prototype Rudder Veer Reminder in my CAD program--think something like a protractor for a base shape. What would you all call a good size for it? 2" across, 3 or bigger? I'd like to keep it small, but at the same time big enough to be clearly read and for us with ten thumbs to be able to work with the parts.

I doubt this is doable with the various veer values vs. the maneuver cards, but what about using a dial with small windows where you set your maneuver card played, the veer value and then read out what the maximum and minimum cards you could put into play? I probably don't need something this fiddly, but it would be handy if there's any question about appropriate cards played. The main issue for me is the reminder that I need to stay within the veer limitations when using Standard and Advanced Rules.

[Diamondback]

Jim, I have a plan for that--a common base with a different pin-on wedge for each Veer rating. Simply lift one off and drop the next on and Good2Go.

As for your idea, that's kind of the basic concept I have for the Wheel version--different faceplate for each Veer rating, dial it to your last card played and two other windows show your upper and lower limits, possibly with concentric rings so all you have to do is Dial A Card then find the ring for your Veer rating. Also very simple to do--gimme a size and maybe I can have a rough concept knocked out early next week.

[Nightmoss]

Jim, I have a plan for that--a common base with a different pin-on wedge for each Veer rating. Simply lift one off and drop the next on and Good2Go.

As for your idea, that's kind of the basic concept I have for the Wheel version--different faceplate for each Veer rating, dial it to your last card played and two other windows show your upper and lower limits, possibly with concentric rings so all you have to do is Dial A Card then find the ring for your Veer rating. Also very simple to do--gimme a size and maybe I can have a rough concept knocked out early next week.

Sounds cool! I think a wheel somewhere in the 3 to 4 inch diameter range? Anything smaller and my aging eyes would likely have issues seeing the numbers.

[csadn]

Also, I'm starting to work up thoughts for sketching out a prototype Rudder Veer Reminder in my CAD program--think something like a protractor for a base shape.

This is what I was trying to describe elsewhere -- a protractor-esque base, with a pennant-shaped indicator showing what the last maneuver was.

[Jason]

I've made one. :) Wasn't sure about the dial though... tried two designs, but I dont like as much as the base. Any other ideas gentelmen? Perhaps the fleur-de-lys, but it would double the one on the wind rose design...

13044

[TexaS]

Beautiful! I love it! :thumbsup::hatsoff:

[7eat51]

Very nice, Jan. :thumbsup:

The dial with the ship's wheel keeps to the theme, so I would encourage something along that line.

[Naharaht]

Excellent Jan! I prefer the ship's wheel pointer also.

[Jason]

Thank you :) i also think that the helm pointer is more along original design. I want to improve on the design, but it would be great if someone besides me would do a test print and check how well it works. With some more input i could make it better easily (check if the size of dial and its usability, if it doesnt break or bend, if its not too large or too small) :)

[TexaS]

You could add veer numbers to the wheel to. That would make it easy to quickly know how far you could go in another direction with current veer.

And the arm of the pointer is a little slim... Perhaps I just printed it a little small?