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Capn Duff
04-27-2014, 08:50
With wave two we have first rates and third rates in the initial release.
So when do we think we will see any second rates?
I for one would like to see HMS Temeraire
Anyone else got any ships for the future?

7eat51
04-28-2014, 10:42
At this point, I would like most anything - different nations, eras, etc.

My primary interest would be to play War of 1812, but I would enjoy any campaign, to be honest.

fredmiracle
04-28-2014, 10:45
It has seemed likely to me that 2nd rates will be in wave 3, but who knows...

Comte de Brueys
04-28-2014, 18:26
I woul dlike to see a Neptune class like HMS Temeraire with 98 cannons.

...and the famous French Tonnant class with 84 guns.

Gunner
04-28-2014, 19:05
Enough British except for a 64, French except for an 80 & U.S. (for now). Need lightly armed Merchantmen, Spanish, Russian, Dutch, Turkish etc.
Let's expand the battles.:cannonboom::cannon:

Coog
04-29-2014, 09:22
If Ares follows the pattern it seems to be following now, it will be introducing ships that are the most marketable. I doubt we will see many other nations than Great Britain, France, and the United States, with the exception of Spain. I would think with the U. S. market, Ares would be producing U. S. ships. Constitution will be the top seller when it hits the shelves. U. S. buyers are going to want ships to supplement Constitution as well as ones to oppose them, namely British ships more common to the Napoleonic period than most of the ones available so far.

Gunner
04-29-2014, 11:33
If Ares follows the pattern it seems to be following now, it will be introducing ships that are the most marketable. I doubt we will see many other nations than Great Britain, France, and the United States, with the exception of Spain. I would think with the U. S. market, Ares would be producing U. S. ships. Constitution will be the top seller when it hits the shelves. U. S. buyers are going to want ships to supplement Constitution as well as ones to oppose them, namely British ships more common to the Napoleonic period than most of the ones available so far.

I'm a little confused. What English ships are more common to the Napoleonic era than the ones that Ares has already released in Wave 1 & 2?

fredmiracle
04-29-2014, 11:55
I'm a little confused. What English ships are more common to the Napoleonic era than the ones that Ares has already released in Wave 1 & 2?

I'm no expert, but based on discussion on the board here, it seems that the British sloop chosen for Wave 2, and the British frigates in Wave 1, represented the state-of-the-art from around the time of the American Revolution. They were still used during the Napoleonic wars, but had been supplanted as first-tier ships by newer and larger models. In particular it sounds like we will probably see a British "heavy" (~38 guns, incl. 18 pounders) frigate, comparable to the French wave-2 Hebe.

Gunner
04-29-2014, 12:10
I'm no expert, but based on discussion on the board here, it seems that the British sloop chosen for Wave 2, and the British frigates in Wave 1, represented the state-of-the-art from around the time of the American Revolution. They were still used during the Napoleonic wars, but had been supplanted as first-tier ships by newer and larger models. In particular it sounds like we will probably see a British "heavy" (~38 guns, incl. 18 pounders) frigate, comparable to the French wave-2 Hebe.

That would even it up. Or you can use the captured Hebe as the HMS Blonde. Or use them as British Leda class frigates.

Diamondback
04-29-2014, 13:35
Here's a complication... we need a Tonnant/Bucentaure sculpt badly, but T/B is only a heavy Third Rate--Seconds are 90-98 guns, and the French preferred not to build those but rather go heavy on First Rates and Heavy Thirds instead.

Do remember, a British First Rate was a comparatively rare thing until the buildup to the Napoleonic Wars, there were many stretches of time prior to that where there were only like 1-3 or even none at all in the entire Royal Navy.

In short, while the French preferred their big, heavy Firsts and to heck with the cost, the British generally preferred to have a very few First Rates as major-formation flagships and devolve lesser flagship positions to the more economical 90s and 98s.

csadn
04-29-2014, 15:34
Here's a complication... we need a Tonnant/Bucentaure sculpt badly, but T/B is only a heavy Third Rate--Seconds are 90-98 guns, and the French preferred not to build those but rather go heavy on First Rates and Heavy Thirds instead.

So it's effectively a "small 2nd-rate" (a second-rate second-rate? ;) ); release it alongside a British "proper" 2nd.

Comte de Brueys
04-29-2014, 23:29
Here's a complication... we need a Tonnant/Bucentaure sculpt badly, but T/B is only a heavy Third Rate--Seconds are 90-98 guns, and the French preferred not to build those but rather go heavy on First Rates and Heavy Thirds instead.

...

I think we have to put the Tonnant-class in the 3rd rate section, too.

Have a look on the armament of the Tonnant :

36-Pfünder: 30
24-Pfünder: 32
12-Pfünder: 18
36-Pfünder Karronaden: 4

...and a ship of the Temeraire class:

36-Pfünder: 28
18-Pfünder: 30 (sometimes 24-Pfünder)
8-Pfünder: 16
36-Pfünder Karronaden: 4

Looks like a heavier armament for the Tonnant class.

Unfortunately I have no reliable informations about the design differences of a Temeraire-class and a Tonnant-class.

Does anyone??? :question:

I hope it's wort to bring the Tonnant-class in series III with a Spanish 3rd rate. :pray:

DeRuyter
04-30-2014, 11:09
Here's a complication... we need a Tonnant/Bucentaure sculpt badly, but T/B is only a heavy Third Rate--Seconds are 90-98 guns, and the French preferred not to build those but rather go heavy on First Rates and Heavy Thirds instead.


If you look in the scenario booklet under "The Battle of Cape Ortegal", Formidable (80) is uprated with a 5-8-5 initial hull box. (using Redoubtable as a stand in). So perhaps it is a simple matter to represent the 80 gun 3rd rates this way?

Coog
04-30-2014, 11:28
I'm a little confused. What English ships are more common to the Napoleonic era than the ones that Ares has already released in Wave 1 & 2?

Fred already summed it up but I'll expand a little. The Swan class sloop doesn't really fit in. A later sloop is needed and none would be better than the Cruzier class brig-sloop which was heavily used by the British. A Lively class 38 gun frigate would be nice and perhaps a Leda class using the existing Hebe class model. There were also a large number of 36 gun British frigates of a few different classes that saw a lot of action. Also newer 32 gun frigates, such as the Thames class, were in use.

Gunner
04-30-2014, 12:00
I hope in time Ares does come out with many English ships but, only way after they get many other countries into the fray and not before.

David Manley
04-30-2014, 12:40
I hope in time Ares does come out with many English ships but, only way after they get many other countries into the fray and not before.

We captured so many ships from so many nations of so many types that just about ANYTHING that Ares is likely to produce can be used as a British ship :)

Diamondback
04-30-2014, 13:21
Tonnant was another Jacques-Noel Sane design... wish I could find a drawing to compare to the Temeraires.

Not to push my own POV, but frankly, I'd be more comfortable if we at least kept balance on decks within each set. 1st-2nd rates are both 3-deckers, 3rd-4th are 2-deckers except very late with the coming of superfrigates. Besides, Spain was also very heavy on First Rates and not-so-much on Seconds, so here again holding the Second Rates to balance those makes sense. Unless Ares is gonna keep things in regular production rotation re-running Waves 1 and 2, we have to keep in mind that there are gonna be rookies coming in and if they can't get at least a somewhat balanced game out of the current wave plus the Starter it's gonna get demoralizing fast.

For measurements in French pied du roi:
Gun-decks: Temeraire 172', Tonnant 182'6", Bucentaure 183'4"
Keels: Temeraire 155', Tonnant 167', Bucentaure 176'10"
Breadths: Temeraire 44'6", Tonnant 47', Bucentaure 50'2"
Depths in Hold: Temeraire 22', Tonnant 23', Bucentaure 25'

D in H is useless to us since that's largely below the waterline, ditto Keel. So our major dimensions of concern are Gundeck and Breadth.

So, in millimeters and for models:
LGD's Temeraire 55.89mm, Tonnant 59.18mm (Tem+3.29mm), Bucentaure 59.57mm (Tem+3.68mm)
Breadths Temeraire 14.46mm, Tonnant 15.27mm (Tem+0.81mm), Bucentaure 16.3mm (Tem+1.84mm)

Were *I* Jacques-Noel Sane, I would have basically up-scaled the Temeraire design to create my new 80's, perhaps the major change being a one-gunport stretch in the quarterdeck area--but not having sufficient draughts for comparison I can't be sure. I'll have to go back to the NMM collection and see if they have draughts taken off from Tonnant and any captured Bucentaures...

EDIT: Temeraire-derivative HMS Achille/Superb above, captured Tonnant below
http://collections.rmg.co.uk/mediaLib/502/media-502093/large.jpg
http://collections.rmg.co.uk/mediaLib/659/media-659646/large.jpg
For comparison, Sane's third major SOL design an Ocean, specifically Commerce de Marseille:
http://collections.rmg.co.uk/mediaLib/559/media-559108/large.jpg

One can see a certain "family resemblance", other than the three-decker having a noticeable "bulge-out" rather than the graceful tumblehome-turning-back-toward-vertical of the two-deckers, almost as if the smaller design was chopped like smoothing a layer of cake with a third added on top of it.

Gunner
04-30-2014, 13:56
We captured so many ships from so many nations of so many types that just about ANYTHING that Ares is likely to produce can be used as a British ship :)

Good point. No need for more English ships (except a 64 ). Lets start with Spanish.

Diamondback
04-30-2014, 19:55
See previous point--we're gonna need somebody for the Spanish to fight on semi-equal terms to keep the new guys interested, unless you expect to have Wave 1 reprinted MUCH more regularly than WGF Wave 1.

So what I'd do for the Spanish introductory wave...

Three-deckers: Something like Santa Ana/Meregildos-class vs. a British Second Rate--say a London ( 4 ships, 1766-1839 class service life), Barfleur (4 ships, 1768-1839, can be stretched earlier and add one more as based on 1719-1813 Royal William 100) or Duke (4, 1777-1843)*
Smaller: ??? (data on Spanish frigates and smaller SUCKS even worse than on their SOL's) vs. British Lively 38 or similar (save the Ledas for going to the mat with the American heavy frigates)
*Yes, I know Henslow's 1797-1857 Neptunes were mentioned, but there were only three of 'em, and we need to look for at least six including "near-match stretches" for inclusion in a set--we don't REALLY want another over-extension like on the Wave 2 British First Rates (*stares pointedly at Hibernia and Ville de Paris*), do we? I suppose it COULD be a Spanish-Dutch wave, but the problem is Boney was making the Netherlands his jailhouse girlfriend at that time too... Besides, better to introduce one new country at a time and since at its peak the RN was roughly HALF the entire world's warships...

David Manley
04-30-2014, 22:20
There's no reason why a decent spread of Spanish ships couldn't be a wave of its own, rather than an adversarialrelease. A first, third and a couple of frigates and you are there.

Diamondback
04-30-2014, 22:27
Perhaps... I'm just thinking from the POV of the rookie just buying in that wave: "These ships are nice... but they're all Spanish, and all I can find to play against them is in the Starter--where's the meat here? What am I going to go up against with these?"

Gunner
04-30-2014, 22:40
There's no reason why a decent spread of Spanish ships couldn't be a wave of its own, rather than an adversarialrelease. A first, third and a couple of frigates and you are there.

I second that.:beer:

Nightmoss
04-30-2014, 23:02
I like both David's and DB's suggestions being a tad biased towards the Spanish. Either way I'll be happy.

David Manley
04-30-2014, 23:44
Perhaps... I'm just thinking from the POV of the rookie just buying in that wave: "These ships are nice... but they're all Spanish, and all I can find to play against them is in the Starter--where's the meat here? What am I going to go up against with these?"

It would be nice to think that Ares could actually keep earlier releases in print......

And one of each Spanish type in the wave could also be a British ship :happy:

Comte de Brueys
05-01-2014, 06:05
Tonnant was another Jacques-Noel Sane design... wish I could find a drawing to compare to the Temeraires.

...

Thank you very much! :clap:

Maybe we'll get the Bucentaure, some day.

Their dimensons are able to justify an own miniature.

Diamondback
05-01-2014, 16:42
What worries me is Tonnant vs Bucentaure is less than HMS Hibernia vs. HMS Ville de Paris (which was "cut ship in half, insert 11' plug"). At those minor dimensional differences, I'd be OK with T&B sharing a sculpt since they are known relatives, not really sold on issuing them as Temeraire repops yet though.

Пилот
05-01-2014, 17:43
Spaniards are good choice for new wave, I agree with Ed and David. Merchants too.

Gunner
05-01-2014, 18:10
Yup, A Spanish 1st, 3rd and 5th rate and a Light Merchantman. A perfect wave.:beer:

Nightmoss
05-02-2014, 08:30
Yup, A Spanish 1st, 3rd and 5th rate and a Light Merchantman. A perfect wave.:beer:

+1 ^

mdavis41
05-06-2014, 19:30
Do you think we might see Shapeway 3-D prints to fill some of the gaps, the same way as they do so well for Wings of War/Glory aircraft? I'm afraid Ares will move on to a new game system altogether before they tackle all of our Sails of Glory requests. That said, I'd love to see a Spanish wave, a merchantman/East Indianman wave, a non-rated wave, etc....

Gunner
05-06-2014, 19:44
If Shapeway's ships come out as rough as their WWI planes, count me out.

Coog
05-06-2014, 19:47
I was looking at some ships of various periods and scales on the Shapeways site and they look pretty rough without the detail of the Ares models.

mdavis41
05-06-2014, 20:42
You might be right about 1/1000 scale ships, although none are available yet. However, I have had success with many, though not all, of Shapeways 1/144 WW1 airplanes, especially in Frosted Ultra Detail plastic. Does anyone make 1/1000 ships?

Nightmoss
05-06-2014, 22:22
Do you think we might see Shapeway 3-D prints to fill some of the gaps, the same way as they do so well for Wings of War/Glory aircraft? I'm afraid Ares will move on to a new game system altogether before they tackle all of our Sails of Glory requests. That said, I'd love to see a Spanish wave, a merchantman/East Indianman wave, a non-rated wave, etc....

I don't think any of the Shapeway's ships are going to work for us. Too crude and lacking in detail. However, if this guy does 1/1000 ships to fill in some gaps I'd certainly be interested.

http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=341361

He was going to post some updates, but they've not appeared yet.

David Manley
05-06-2014, 22:40
I did very recently hear a rumour from a reputable source that a company is considering plastic 1/1000 kits, but at this stage it is definitely only "considering". As and when I hear more 'll let you all know

Пилот
05-07-2014, 10:09
Nice, if happens :beer:

Coog
05-07-2014, 10:24
I did very recently hear a rumour from a reputable source that a company is considering plastic 1/1000 kits, but at this stage it is definitely only "considering". As and when I hear more 'll let you all know

British company?

Пилот
05-10-2014, 02:05
By the way, such kits may provide enough material to make interchangeable broken masts and damaged sails.

Diamondback
05-10-2014, 11:05
Also newer 32 gun frigates, such as the Thames class, were in use.
It's worth noting that Thames was basically a dust-off of the old 1757 Richmond blueprints. For 32's, the closest to a Napoleonic-era-tech 32 is the 1779 Active class, which were IIRC the last new design 32's built for the RN before they moved up to 36's.