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Nightmoss
04-26-2014, 09:16
I've never particularly liked how the paper pennants have turned out on the Langton minis. Some modelers out there have a special knack for making them look they're waving in the wind. I always seem to end up with more glue on my hands and they don't look particularly realistic, etc. Also, some recent posts here have touched on ship recognition while playing the game. So, I started thinking about making brass pennants using materials I might find at the local hobby/craft shop, which happens to be Michael's in this case. I found brass sheets by the roll that you can purchase as well as special jewelers pliers that can be used to 'bend' the brass to fit on the masts of ships (both Langton and SoG ships).

I think they turned out OK, and they can be removed and replaced quite easily if ships should happen to change sides during a game. Initially I'm going with Red vs. Blue, but I'll also try Black vs. White for folks who might be color blind. I'll also try some elaborate painting, tri-colors, etc., down the road. It takes very little time to make them so if they get smooshed during play or transportation I'll just make more. The sheet of brass could probably make thousands of pennants?

Let me know what you think? Cheers!

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David Manley
04-26-2014, 11:37
They look pretty good, and ideal for identification if they are removeable and interchangable

Devsdoc
04-26-2014, 12:02
Hi Jim,
I to do not like my flags etc. Vol makes his look great. this si something I must look into this. I would pant them in home colours. Thanks :thumbsup:
Be safe
Rory

Nightmoss
04-26-2014, 12:50
They look pretty good, and ideal for identification if they are removeable and interchangable

They are removable and if they become too loose on the mast you can crimp them slightly tighter with just your finger nails. I've also found the brass is very forgiving and bendable so you can arrange the pennants any way you like. I trim the end of the flag so it's not too sharp. I might not use with young children for fear of cuts, etc.?


Hi Jim,
I to do not like my flags etc. Vol makes his look great. this si something I must look into this. I would pant them in home colours. Thanks :thumbsup:
Be safe
Rory

I spent some time this afternoon with other colors on the pennants and also tried a different style pennant. I'll try to get some photos up later today or tomorrow. Yes, I agree that Vol's pennants are great!!

I was also thinking if you didn't want to paint the brass you could probably use colored adhesive paper to place on the brass and then bend them as desired?

Thanks for the feedback!

Cmmdre
04-26-2014, 12:52
Utterly brilliant Jim!! Thank you for the Awesome tip. Those look great. :thumbsup:

7eat51
04-26-2014, 13:13
Jim, once again, you have taught and inspired us. Really great stuff there. :thumbsup:

As for gameplay, I think they would be a very welcome addition.

If you ever attend Origins, you should hold a class. Actually, an Ares based modeling class for WoG and SoG would probably be very well attended.

Nightmoss
04-26-2014, 16:30
More photos showing a different style pennant, also black, white and yellow pennants. I included a few shots of ships on the mat to show how the colors help with identification. From viewing at about 4 feet the Black vs. White pennants really do pop out against the blue mat background.

Thanks all for the nice comments!

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Пилот
04-26-2014, 17:45
Pennants look great! (Ships too :happy: )

7eat51
04-26-2014, 23:52
Jim, this really is a good idea, and one that most of us can implement, i.e. even those of us that are modeling-challenged. It is an elegant way of identification, as well as enhancing the look of the ships. Thanks for the extra pics; they demonstrate the usefulness and look of the pennants well.

Your collection is looking rather nicely, especially the custom paints. The black and green ones are rather ominous.

Berthier
04-27-2014, 00:08
Clever ideas Jim, do you have problem with the paint cracking when you bend the brass? Or do you bend then paint?

The Royal Hajj
04-27-2014, 08:05
These look very sweet! Maybe a tad over sized... but sharp looking none the less.

Comte de Brueys
04-27-2014, 08:34
Nice addition, Jim. :thumbsup:

Don't know if those mast flag fits to the Napoleonic aera.

They always remind me on the ships of the 16th century. (Francis Drake, etc...)

Nightmoss
04-27-2014, 09:11
Clever ideas Jim, do you have problem with the paint cracking when you bend the brass? Or do you bend then paint?

I was worried the paint would crack, and I've used both methods; bend first then paint or paint then bend. So far they don't seem inclined to crack. I do rub steel wool on the brass, then prime with grey paint and then paint and I think that provides a good base for the acrylics.


These look very sweet! Maybe a tad over sized... but sharp looking none the less.

Agreed. Some were made oversize primarily for game recognition. What's so nice about this method is the quickness you can make a flag you find more appealing or realistic.


Nice addition, Jim. :thumbsup:

Don't know if those mast flag fits to the Napoleonic aera.

They always remind me on the ships of the 16th century. (Francis Drake, etc...)

I would agree, but the larger flags do assist for in ship identification.

Nightmoss
04-27-2014, 09:14
Jim, this really is a good idea, and one that most of us can implement, i.e. even those of us that are modeling-challenged. It is an elegant way of identification, as well as enhancing the look of the ships. Thanks for the extra pics; they demonstrate the usefulness and look of the pennants well.

Your collection is looking rather nicely, especially the custom paints. The black and green ones are rather ominous.

While a bit oversized on the rigged ships I did want to show that the pennants can be put on after the ships are done. The Black Pearl does look ominous and it's pennant really stands out in the pictures.

7eat51
04-27-2014, 10:52
While a bit oversized ...

Size, truly, does not matter; it is how it functions that counts.

Once the game begins, I doubt anyone will care; in fact, I believe most folks will be glad to have an easily identifiable system, especially new players and those with already-aging eyes.

Tommy Z
04-27-2014, 13:13
Very Nice! Well Done, Jim! :thumbsup:

Naharaht
04-27-2014, 21:37
That is a really good idea, Jim. Well done! :thumbsup:

The Royal Hajj
04-28-2014, 06:00
Size, truly, does not matter; it is how it functions that counts.

Once the game begins, I doubt anyone will care; in fact, I believe most folks will be glad to have an easily identifiable system, especially new players and those with already-aging eyes.


While a bit oversized on the rigged ships I did want to show that the pennants can be put on after the ships are done. The Black Pearl does look ominous and it's pennant really stands out in the pictures.


I totally agree that they are great as an ID system. You could assign base colors to each nation and then paint up the pennants with different secondary colors and/or designs. This way players would know at a glance which side a ship was on, but each player could ID their ship instantly. This type of system could be invaluable at a Con.

Nightmoss
04-28-2014, 08:30
I totally agree that they are great as an ID system. You could assign base colors to each nation and then paint up the pennants with different secondary colors and/or designs. This way players would know at a glance which side a ship was on, but each player could ID their ship instantly. This type of system could be invaluable at a Con.

I have tons of brass with this roll so if folks have specific ideas they'd like me to try out shoot me a PM or reply here. Making the pennants takes very little time and I don't mind trying some more experiments with the pennants or possibly flags?

7eat51
04-28-2014, 10:26
I totally agree that they are great as an ID system. You could assign base colors to each nation and then paint up the pennants with different secondary colors and/or designs. This way players would know at a glance which side a ship was on, but each player could ID their ship instantly. This type of system could be invaluable at a Con.

Excellent idea. Will implement at Origins. I think this will definitely help with the larger games.

Nightmoss
04-28-2014, 11:53
I wanted to try an enhancement to the pennants to improve their ability to be removed, replaced and generally stay firmly on the main masts. So when cutting from the brass sheet I cut a slight notch that can be folded down over the mast when you make the initial bend for the pennants. They're going to be large in terms of scale, but it works visually. Here are some shots so you can see what I had in mind. With smaller scissors you could round the edges on the notch, but that's not really necessary.

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The Royal Hajj
04-28-2014, 12:09
Works a charm Jim!

Devsdoc
04-28-2014, 17:11
Hi Jim,
I like your pennants. In the English Civil War, each regiment had a base colour flag. Each company had it's own markings on the base colour, e.g. the 1st company had the base colour only. The 2nd had 1 ball, star or tongue on it. The 3rd had 2 balls, stars or tongues and so on. You could use this for each ship, or each squadron of ships in a large game. Maybe a different colour in the frist quarter of the pennant. I hope this helps and adds to your idea. I would ask how would the movable pennants work on a fully rigged ship?
Be safe
Rory

Naharaht
04-28-2014, 19:12
Until 1864 The Royal Navy had its squadrons organised into Red, White and Blue as this extract from the Wikipedia article on the rank of Admiral in the Royal Navy explains. Each ship in the squadron flew a red, white of blue flag as appropriate.



King Edward I of England appointed the first English admiral in 1297 when he named William de Leybourne “Admiral of the sea of the King of England”. The rank of admiral should not be confused with the office of Admiral of England or Lord High Admiral, which was an office held by the person with overall responsibility for the Navy.

The Royal Navy has had vice and rear admirals since at least the 16th century. When in command of the fleet, the admiral would be in either the lead or the middle portion of the fleet. When the admiral commanded from the middle portion of the fleet his deputy, the vice admiral, would be in the leading portion or van. Below him was another admiral at the rear of the fleet, called rear admiral.

In Elizabethan times the fleet grew large enough to be organized into squadrons. The admiral’s squadron wore a red ensign, the vice admiral’s white, and the rear admiral’s blue. As the squadrons grew, each was eventually commanded by an admiral (with vice admirals and rear admirals commanding sections) and the official ranks became admiral of the white, etc.

The squadrons ranked in order red, white, and blue, with admirals ranked according to their squadron:
1.Admiral of the Fleet (red)
2.Admiral of the white
3.Admiral of the blue
4.Vice admiral of the red
5.Vice admiral of the white
6.Vice admiral of the blue
7.Rear admiral of the red
8.Rear admiral of the white
9.Rear admiral of the blue

Promotion up the ladder was in accordance with seniority in the rank of post-captain, and rank was held for life, so the only way to be promoted was for the person above on the list to die or resign. Another way was to promote captains to the rank of admiral without distinction of squadron (a practice known as yellowing—the captain so raised became known as a yellow admiral).[1] According to N.A.M. Rodger this was the Navy's first attempt at superannuating older officers: a 'yellow admiral' was in effect being retired on half pay.[2]

During the Interregnum, the rank of admiral was replaced by that of general at sea.

In the 18th century, the original nine ranks began to be filled by more than one man per rank, although the rank of admiral of the red was always filled by only one man and was known as Admiral of the Fleet. After the battle of Trafalgar in 1805 the rank of Admiral of the Red was introduced. The number of officers holding each rank steadily increased throughout the 18th and early 19th centuries; in 1769 there were 29 admirals of various grades, by the close of the Napoleonic Wars in 1816 there were 190 admirals in service. Thereafter the number of admirals was reduced and in 1853 there were 79 admirals.

Although the admirals were promoted according to strict seniority, appointments to command were made at the discretion of the Board of Admiralty. As there were invariably more admirals in service than there were postings, many admirals remained unemployed, especially in peacetime.

The organisation of the fleet into coloured squadrons was finally abandoned in 1864. The Red Ensign was allocated to the Merchant Marine, the White Ensign became the flag of the Royal Navy, and the Blue Ensign was allocated to the naval reserve and naval auxiliary vessels.

Devsdoc
04-28-2014, 19:57
David,
You are so right with what you say. I was just looking to help him use his idea for I.D.ing the fleets or ships in a game. The British had the idea up and running. I do not know if other fleets had a system to I.D. ships.
Be safe
Rory

Пилот
04-29-2014, 05:48
So, basically, there's no limitation in putting pennants when one makes his own fleet? Also, are 3rd, 4th, 5th etc. classed vessels allowed to have pennants?

Ducky
04-29-2014, 07:15
Believe the Dutch navy had a system similar to the British navy.
Dont know the exact details but the thing with the red, blue en white flags was similar.

so yes there where other navies that had such a thing up and running...

Admirals Flags
Just prior to the Batavian republic, the Dutch navy had adopted a system of blue, white and red ensigns to denote the seniority of admirals. The 'blues' were junior to the 'whites', who were junior to the 'reds'.

-The Dutch term for a Rear Admiral is 'Schout bij Nacht'. De Schout bij Nacht flew his ensign from the top of the mizzen mast.
-The Vice Admiral, in Dutch: 'Vice Admiraal' flew his ensign from the top of the fore mast.
-The (full) Admiral, in Dutch: 'Admiraal' would have flown his ensign from the main mast but I write 'would have' since in this particular period there were no Dutch (full) Admiraals commanding a fleet at sea

Nightmoss
04-29-2014, 09:24
Hi Jim,
I like your pennants. In the English Civil War, each regiment had a base colour flag. Each company had it's own markings on the base colour, e.g. the 1st company had the base colour only. The 2nd had 1 ball, star or tongue on it. The 3rd had 2 balls, stars or tongues and so on. You could use this for each ship, or each squadron of ships in a large game. Maybe a different colour in the frist quarter of the pennant. I hope this helps and adds to your idea. I would ask how would the movable pennants work on a fully rigged ship?
Be safe
Rory

Thanks Rory. I really like this idea of fleet/player customization! I'll probably try some custom painting to see just how this might look somewhere down the road.

As for movable pennants on a fully rigged ship I've had to adjust the size of the pennant to fit above where the lines come to the masts (see the Black Pearl and Flying Dutchman above, both have standing rigging). If there's no room above the lines on the mast then there wont be room for the pennant.

csadn
04-29-2014, 15:32
Believe the Dutch navy had a system similar to the British navy.
Dont know the exact details but the thing with the red, blue en white flags was similar.

It Got Worse: Each of the seven provinces had (or could have) its own "navy" -- it was possible for a Dutch fleet to have no fewer than *21* Admirals....

As to the problem of too many elderly decrepit types clogging the ranks: Oddly, the best solution to this I've seen came from a group not known for its Navy -- the Confederate Sates of America. Stephen Mallory, the head of the CSN, had that problem: Too many officers; not enough ships; and the bane of all societies, "seniority", meant the field commands would go to those least able to handle them. How did Mallory fix this? He split the CSN into two parts, "Regular" and "Provisional". Into the Regulars went the old, the ill, and the incompetent; they received "permanent" ranks based on what they held when they bailed on the USN, and were sent to desk-jobs, where they remained until the retired, or died. The Provisionals, on the other hand, received the young, the fit, the capable; they were given "brevet" or provisional ranks -- and the ship commands, where by combat action they could be raised (or lowered!) through the ranks as their talents demonstrated. Best I can tell, it's the closest any military has come to a proper meritocracy. :)

Devsdoc
04-30-2014, 10:52
Thanks Rory. I really like this idea of fleet/player customization! I'll probably try some custom painting to see just how this might look somewhere down the road.

As for movable pennants on a fully rigged ship I've had to adjust the size of the pennant to fit above where the lines come to the masts (see the Black Pearl and Flying Dutchman above, both have standing rigging). If there's no room above the lines on the mast then there wont be room for the pennant.

Happy to help Jim, and add to a good idea. I know this may not be historical right, but would help in bigger games or with players new to naval gaming.


elderly decrepit types clogging the ranks:

Chris,
I to thought the Dutch fleets had provincial navies. I like the clogging bit about the Dutch navy. :wink: :clap:
Be safe both of you
Rory

csadn
04-30-2014, 16:38
I like the clogging bit about the Dutch navy. :wink: :clap:

I was referring to the Confederacy's navy, but as I recall the Dutch had the same problem. For once: The Pun was unintentional. ;)

Ducky
04-30-2014, 16:50
But its still funny :thumbsup:

Gunner
05-09-2014, 00:02
Thanks Jim, received the 3x6 yesterday. Now all I have to do is decide Country, fleet and squadron colors.:drinks:

Nightmoss
05-09-2014, 08:21
Thanks Jim, received the 3x6 yesterday. Now all I have to do is decide Country, fleet and squadron colors.:drinks:

Good to hear. I was going to check in with you today as the mail went out on Monday. Good luck with the decision process!