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mdavis41
03-14-2014, 17:34
I have been working on ship cards for HMS Belleisle 1795 and HMS Achille 1798, using HMS Spartiate, the model and the cards. HMS Achille, although a Pompée class 74, had a broadside weight at Trafalgar of 1,049 pounds, a nominal crew crew of 640 (619 at Trafalgar). Would you use the same stats as HMS Spartiate, burden, sail, crew, etc OR should I make modifications to the ship's card and damage deck? Though not literally a Téméraire-class, this seems a good proxy. I assume the Spartiate model will also serve?

HMS Belleisle, though an actual Téméraire-class, was up-gunned and crewed by Trafalgar. Broadside weight of 1178 pounds (110% of Spartiate) and nominal crew of 700 (actual at Trafalgar, 620). The incomplete crew would suggest no change there to Spartiate's stats. However, with all those x14 32 pdr carronades on the quarterdeck and x6 24 pdr carronades on the poop deck, Belleisle had a broadside 30 pounds heavier than HMS Victory. How should this be handled on the ship's cards and damage deck? I assume the Spartiate model will once again serve and I'm not up to adding any more tiny guns to the model!

I'm sure someone has made better cards than me. However for working purposes, this is what I have so far:

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I welcome the thoughts of our erudite readership!

Nightmoss
03-15-2014, 09:23
Michael, the cards look very nice. As for the ship stats, etc., you'll need to get responses from those more knowledgeable than I. DB, David, etc., are the best resources here. Cheers!

Diamondback
03-15-2014, 10:31
Michael, as far as I'm concerned reverse-engineered derivatives count as part of the class, especially since the French alone had like four to six different variants all grouped into the Temeraire family.

This is a good idea, and one I've taken a stab at numbers on myself, but we have a problem that the damage model is a curve or piecework rather than a linear function, giving smaller ships a proportionally higher number of chits than larger.

If you send me a PM with your email, I've got an Excel spreadsheet of every variant armament that another member and I've been able to find for the officially confirmed ship classes (except Constitution and Santissima Trinidad, which reminds me I need to get those added), and it might give you a few other ideas. (I'm trying to work up a 1792 all-carronade HMS Egmont which would have no A-range punch but be a beast at closer ranges myself. It's just such an oddball configuration...)

fredmiracle
03-15-2014, 10:59
From the limited perspective we get from wave 1, it doesn't seem like different ships in a class will normally vary from each other much, even with meaningful variances in armament and crew.

But we should have a better sense of how much "play" there is in the statting when wave 2 comes out. Maybe Ares will get more aggressive on individualizing the ships as the game matures. (Based on the points values they've put out, it looks like the variation within a class in wave2 is fairly similar to wave 1, except with HUGE variation among the British first-rates) And at any rate the "bands" for the stats will be better defined. After all, any up-statting you do on a 74 has to not only not run into first-rate ships, but will also need to leave some wiggle room for 2nd rates...

Diamondback
03-15-2014, 11:07
But, if Belleisle's equaling or beating Victory for raw destructive power, maybe we should give her (and perhaps 1805-arm Redoutable, who dueled Victory on near-equal footing at Trafalgar) the same damage draw as Victory.

Sometimes, an exception to the "rules" is warranted, after all...

David Manley
03-15-2014, 11:17
Maybe Ares will get more aggressive on individualizing the ships as the game matures.

I'm not sure I'd be all that keen on this, at least not on a "ship by ship" basis. I'd prefer to see standard ship types and then a system that allows crew and command quality to be factored in to the basic ship. Material state too. The captain and crew cards go some way towards that

Diamondback
03-15-2014, 11:30
Well, not TOO aggressive, but maybe change stats by a point here or there--save the real dramatic stuff for the true oddballs like Belleisle, Egmont etc.

fredmiracle
03-15-2014, 11:59
I'm not sure I'd be all that keen on this, at least not on a "ship by ship" basis. I'd prefer to see standard ship types and then a system that allows crew and command quality to be factored in to the basic ship. Material state too. The captain and crew cards go some way towards that

I'm not necessarily saying they *will* or *should* do this, but that it does seem like a possible route they may choose to take.

This observation is mostly prompted by (a) a desire to respond to original poster's apparent interest in representing the particular configurations of individual ships, and (b) the wide variation in posted points cost in wave-2 British First-Rates--which ranges from 187 to 212, suggesting their stats will vary substantially.

At this point, personally, I'm pretty comfortable with the ships "all being the same" since then I will feel less pressure to buy more.

Diamondback
03-15-2014, 12:50
My bet is the later First Rates get the higher numbers, since some of them went up to 104 or even 110 guns nominal rating. It's uncertain if Victory was ever re-uprated again, but sometime after she was downgraded as a prototype for the 1810 Boyne 98 Second Rates, both Boyne and Union were up-gunned into 104's so it's plausible their direct ancestor came along too.

Comte de Brueys
03-15-2014, 16:45
The ship cards look good, Michael.

I need a French SoL one to change the Commerce de Bordeaux to the Timoléon.

Some work for my scanner and the paint program. :steer:

mdavis41
03-15-2014, 16:48
Thanks for all the comments above. I've had a go at producing cards for HMS Thunderer 1783, a Culloden Class 74. I used Bellerophon as the basis for this mod but this time put the reported Trafalgar crew in the crew box, 611. With a broadside weight of only 781 pounds she was a much lighter 74 than those we have been discussing. She was also over her rated compliment of 550/600. The broadside was the same as Bellerophon and the crew similar, being rated at 550 with 522 reported present at Traflagar. I feel comfortable using Bellerophon's model and stats for Thunderer. Of course, the problem will be obtaining another Bellerophon model since this was a Kickstarter item. I failed to participate in KS but managed to buy two on eBay. I think HMS Bellona also works fine from a stats point of view and is certainly more available. I just prefer the Nelson paint scheme on Bellerophon and I'm not up to a repaint of Bellona in her earlier paint scheme.

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John Paul
03-16-2014, 00:07
I wish I had the talent to make up my own ship cards!! For me, repainting the paint jobs is the easy part!!!

7eat51
03-16-2014, 14:54
Very nice work, Michael. Very nice. :hatsoff:

I wouldn't hesitate to change a number here or there on the ship log, based on what you think a given ship would be. Along with the Captain/Crew cards, this is an effective way to customize. I think from many players' perspective, once the ships are on the table, the players will spend their energy playing the game and not focusing on the paint schemes. Having a set of interchangeable cards for a given sculpt is an inexpensive way to create different scenarios, and scenarios with a nod to history - named ships as opposed to generic 2 SoLs vs. 2 SoLs, for example.