Yet Another Damage Draw Discussion

[JonathanE]

Not that I want to start yet another thread on Damage Discussion ( though I realize I just did :takecover: ), I'm interested in getting some thoughts from the group.

I don't intend to repeat the Changing Percentages (Original Rules) method verses the Constant Percentages (D30 Dice Roll) method as both have pros and cons and have been discussed elsewhere.

Currently (Original Rules) both (all) opponents draw from the same set of Damage Counters (DCs). I'm thinking of something different, though it's probably impractical to do with physical tokens.

:question: What if each side (Nation) had their own set of DCs to draw from?
Or if each Ship had its own set?

:hmmm: Also, since each "Ship Captain" draws Damage Tokens for damage done against their own ship - would it be better to draw from from their own set of DCs, or from their opponents?

And how would the above affect the game?

Just some of the strange thoughts currently bouncing around in my head.:shock:

[Пилот]

What I read about the period, French preferred to aim masts, sails and rigging, and Brits preferred to aim hull and decks. So, to represent that, maybe special damage should be differently distributed. But I also read that Brits usually had won :cannonboom:

[John Paul]

I've been using two sets of DCs combined in the mix from which each side draws from. I can't say I've run enough games as yet to note if it makes any real difference in game play.

In a game we played this past Sunday during the opening exchange of broadsides the French pulled 6 x 0, & 1 x 1 damage, while the English pulled 2 x 6, 2 x 5, & 2 x 4 and had 2 loss of crew! The English Admiral kind of looked at me, and I simply replied that "stuff happens", and today just isn't your day! In the end the British were victorious, even though he had a similar draw near the end of the game!

Having recently acquired two more counter sets I've considered having each side draw from their own chit pool. It would take several plays though before I get a good feel if I should use one set of DCs per side, or two sets for each side. Obviously though the more ships being used in the game does stretch the probabilities out per ship a little better when using more then one set of counters. When playing with 6 or fewer ships with two sets of counters the damage does build up quickly once the close in engagement starts. So my initial thought would be the number of ships in the game should determine how many counter sets should be used per side or in the game over all. If I remember someone on the previous thread on this subject suggested that 6 - 8 ships seemed to be the cut off point, if you will, for no more then two sets to be used in the game.

[Naharaht]

Won't having separate sets of Damage Counters for each side or each ship cause confusion because they will inevitably become mixed, unless you label them all with coloured spots or something?

[Gunner]

Has anyone tried using the WizKids circle numbers while putting the drawn chits back in the bag? This way every turn, players will have the same odds.

[Berthier]

What I read about the period, French preferred to aim masts, sails and rigging, and Brits preferred to aim hull and decks. So, to represent that, maybe special damage should be differently distributed. But I also read that Brits usually had won :cannonboom:

I think the Brits would have usually won regardless of what they aimed at. Their rate of fire was better and there shot laying and ranging superior. I sometimes wonder whether the debate about the value of French firing at the rigging compared to the Brits concentrating on targeting the hull is actually irrelevent. It may be that this is a mute point that just confuses the clear superiority of British gunnery. Had the British chosen to primarily aim at the rigging they would have normally rendered their opponents immobile before their opponents could do the same to them. Once immobilised, any ship would have been at their mercy and the outcome would have been similar to if they had done hull shots.

[Пилот]

It's a good point. Well-trained gun crews should give the edge, making overall broadside heavier. And Brits usually had better trained crews. But, I wouldn't diminish influence of targeting different ship parts either. Flying shot could easily hit air rather than rigging, easier than shot could miss hull :happy: So, I agree with you, but I believe targeting doctrine had it's part, too.

[John Paul]

Won't having separate sets of Damage Counters for each side or each ship cause confusion because they will inevitably become mixed, unless you label them all with coloured spots or something?

No not really, as when the game is over each player takes the chits from his respective Ship Mat and returns them to the same bag, or other container from which the chits were drawn! If a player messes that up, or worse, loses one or more chits I have a Cat-o-Nine Tails handy to remedy that situation!! :smack:

Also, for accounting purposes before punching out the chits I scanned a copy of each sheet through my printer, so I have a printed copy of how many & what type of chits were on each counter sheet.

[fredmiracle]

I think the chit issue is all about how you feel about it. In principle, the game is "fair" in the sense that everyone starts with the same set of chits to draw from. And in practice, I don't think the differences in various approaches will actually be perceptible--any variation will be swamped by random chance.

But if it bothers you that the percentages change as you draw, or that when one side draws a "good" chit it makes it less likely that the other side will also get to draw a good" chit, then there's no reason not to change the damage system to something you feel better about.

Keeping a set of chits for each side is a bit more overhead, but it doesn't seem like a big deal if it allows you to enjoy the game more :happy:

[JonathanE]

I've been using two sets of DCs combined in the mix from which each side draws from. I can't say I've run enough games as yet to note if it makes any real difference in game play.

In a game we played this past Sunday during the opening exchange of broadsides the French pulled 6 x 0, & 1 x 1 damage, while the English pulled 2 x 6, 2 x 5, & 2 x 4 and had 2 loss of crew! The English Admiral kind of looked at me, and I simply replied that "stuff happens", and today just isn't your day! In the end the British were victorious, even though he had a similar draw near the end of the game!

Having recently acquired two more counter sets I've considered having each side draw from their own chit pool. It would take several plays though before I get a good feel if I should use one set of DCs per side, or two sets for each side. Obviously though the more ships being used in the game does stretch the probabilities out per ship a little better when using more then one set of counters. When playing with 6 or fewer ships with two sets of counters the damage does build up quickly once the close in engagement starts. So my initial thought would be the number of ships in the game should determine how many counter sets should be used per side or in the game over all. If I remember someone on the previous thread on this subject suggested that 6 - 8 ships seemed to be the cut off point, if you will, for no more then two sets to be used in the game.

Just wondering if "Pooling" 2 (or more) counter sets could result in the occasional odd result: drawing all 6's or 5's; drawing all the Leaks, or Fires, or Masts - because now there would be Double (or more) of the counters present to be drawn. Or the chance of only drawing 0's In multiple turns (wet powder maybe?).

Would be interested in hearing the results of each side with their own chit pool and how it affects the game.

[JonathanE]

Won't having separate sets of Damage Counters for each side or each ship cause confusion because they will inevitably become mixed, unless you label them all with coloured spots or something?

I wasn't sure if it was possible to do this practically, but either some markings to distinguish which bag sets they belong to (if drawn by others) or only using the bag set for that ship or side (as Paul said). :salute:

[JonathanE]

I think the chit issue is all about how you feel about it. In principle, the game is "fair" in the sense that everyone starts with the same set of chits to draw from. And in practice, I don't think the differences in various approaches will actually be perceptible--any variation will be swamped by random chance.

But if it bothers you that the percentages change as you draw, or that when one side draws a "good" chit it makes it less likely that the other side will also get to draw a good" chit, then there's no reason not to change the damage system to something you feel better about.

Keeping a set of chits for each side is a bit more overhead, but it doesn't seem like a big deal if it allows you to enjoy the game more :happy:

Agreed, the game is fair, and it doesn't bother me what chits get drawn. When I finish my sailing practice I'll get into shooting. :cannonboom:

I just started thinking about this when it seemed I'd be waiting until May or so before I got a Starter Set or Additional Counters. I wanted to develope a program to generate damage, which lead me to think about different ways to allow users to define how they select damage counters and what they do with them after. :hmmm:

So I'm just trying to get ideas on what alternate methods may be of interest. :hatsoff:

[John Paul]

I think the chit issue is all about how you feel about it. In principle, the game is "fair" in the sense that everyone starts with the same set of chits to draw from. And in practice, I don't think the differences in various approaches will actually be perceptible--any variation will be swamped by random chance.

But if it bothers you that the percentages change as you draw, or that when one side draws a "good" chit it makes it less likely that the other side will also get to draw a good" chit, then there's no reason not to change the damage system to something you feel better about.

Keeping a set of chits for each side is a bit more overhead, but it doesn't seem like a big deal if it allows you to enjoy the game more :happy:

I couldn't agree more!! :salute: Especially with your middle comment!

Whatever system one chooses to use to determine the damage results if it enhances your enjoyment in playing the game there's not a darn thing wrong with that!! :thumbsup:

[John Paul]

Just wondering if "Pooling" 2 (or more) counter sets could result in the occasional odd result: drawing all 6's or 5's; drawing all the Leaks, or Fires, or Masts - because now there would be Double (or more) of the counters present to be drawn. Or the chance of only drawing 0's In multiple turns (wet powder maybe?).

Would be interested in hearing the results of each side with their own chit pool and how it affects the game.

Jon,

As I stated in the post you quoted above the only "odd" draw we've had in the dozen or so games played thus far is the one I mentioned. In one engagement the French player on a draw of 7 chits had 6 zeros, and 1 (1) damage, while the English player in drawing 6 chits drew 2 sixes, 2 fives, and 2 fours with 2 added crew Special Damage. Later on the last turn of the game the English player on drawing 5 chits pulled 1 five, 2 fours, and 2 threes! Thus far that has been the only example we've experienced with the "oddball" draw! So I see it as an outlier and nothing more! Again, that was a game using just the basic rules, with 2 counter sets mixed in the appropriate bags, and both sides drawing from the same set of bags!

[John Paul]

Agreed, the game is fair, and it doesn't bother me what chits get drawn. When I finish my sailing practice I'll get into shooting. :cannonboom:

I just started thinking about this when it seemed I'd be waiting until May or so before I got a Starter Set or Additional Counters. I wanted to develope a program to generate damage, which lead me to think about different ways to allow users to define how they select damage counters and what they do with them after. :hmmm:

So I'm just trying to get ideas on what alternate methods may be of interest. :hatsoff:

Whatever method you decide to use whether chits, D30, or just a random number generator as long as it works for you it's a good thing. Do you want to spend your time sitting with a calculator working out all the various probability charts for the different methods, or would you rather spend time playing the game and just give each method a try to see what is best for you? I'd vote to play the game and see which method you like the best then enjoy!! :hatsoff: