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runelord
02-14-2014, 11:37
Hi All, Played a game with 4 ships a side 2 SOls and 2 Frigates. The ships have had their masts and sails repainted in order to tell them apart quickly. Also I've dropped the random wind chits in favour of compass dice (from SnM Stuff). Also I use coloured bags (from the clever baggers) with the letter written on with a permanent marker.

The game went well with the British in line of battle and the French spreading out with the frigates trying to tease the brits into breaking their line which they did being harassed from range with shot whilst all being loaded with double shot. The French SOLs were loaded with chain so charged headlong into the action. The lead British frigate Terpischore took a pounding but kept going a confused action ensued with full broadsides being off loaded at point blank range. The Commerce de Bordeaux went down ironically aflame and leaking like a sieve. The game ended with French 2 untouched frigates, one sunk ship and a heavily damaged Genereux . British One intact SOL and three badly mauled ships.

French minor victory. Next scenario will see the two French Frigates trying to bring the British SOL to heel.

KeithS
02-14-2014, 12:24
Nice pictures, how large a playing area did you use? It looks as though the action took place in a relatively small area considering that there were 8 ships in play.

runelord
02-14-2014, 13:10
The play area was a 48"x48" mat from terrainmats thw action is concentrated but given max range is 12" with ball and less with double ball, chain or grape. It is necessary to close fast with your bigger ships. Personally I would have preferred longer ranges out to about 18".

The Royal Hajj
02-14-2014, 13:14
Looks like a fun game, thanks for sharing with us.



Nice pictures, how large a playing area did you use? It looks as though the action took place in a relatively small area considering that there were 8 ships in play.

I think having the 4 British ships in line of battle would induce a close action... all the ships are going to converge on that spot for the most part.

Gunner
02-14-2014, 15:10
Personally I would have preferred longer ranges out to about 18".

All you need is a 18" combat ruler.:beer:

Comte de Brueys
02-14-2014, 23:31
Great AAR, Rick. :salute:

The sea gaming surface looks great and fits perfectly to the upgraded/painted ships.

But why French minor victory?

Lost a French 74er and another badly damaged. The Brits will repair their ships very quickly in Naples and return... :takecover:

runelord
02-15-2014, 01:08
The game ended as it was getting late. At game end the 2 French frigates Hermione and Unite were in a good position to have finished off the British badly damaged frigates. Thus a French minor victory. We like to give a good narrative to our games thus we tend to carry results from game to game in order to create a story line. This was the second of three games I'll try to put up pics from first game. Next game as stated earlier will be the final chase.

runelord
02-15-2014, 02:41
This was from our first game, We were a little disappointed that the action ended after 2 ships struck their colours when we had two separate incidents of collisions ending in entanglements the resulting broadsides and musketry was devastating. So the second encounter (This main post) was based on the storyline that HMS Defence who now having a French prize crew was being escorted by Genereux back to France. Terpischore who survived the first encounter has joined up with three other ships to give chase. Whilst three Frenchies are about to rendezvous with Genereux.
For the second game we played with just one manoeuvre card being selected. Which worked well as despite having double the ships in play we only had one collision where the players opted not to board so the ships were placed beyond musket range apart to the mutual satisfaction of the combatants.
9019902090219022

7eat51
02-15-2014, 08:22
Very nice unfolding story. Looking forward to part three.

You mentioned that in the second game, you played one maneuver card. By that, do you mean you did not plan one card ahead?

runelord
02-15-2014, 08:53
Very nice unfolding story. Looking forward to part three.

You mentioned that in the second game, you played one maneuver card. By that, do you mean you did not plan one card ahead?

That is correct. It worked fine, personally I feel that experienced Captains would for the most part be able to intuitively know when to call a manoeuvre with so many variables wind, veer, friends and foes not to mention obstacles and damage. Planning two cards ahead is asking for trouble. I would like to think that I can enjoy playing the wargame rather than a resource management game.

I get it in wings of war as we are talking there about split second decision making at high speed where an opponent may be outwith your visibility arc. Though these are just my own views and will now no doubt start a whole new thread.

This is a good forum with lots of interesting posts for what is a good game. Thanks

7eat51
02-15-2014, 09:01
Rick, I am more inclined to the one-card play. I wonder if using such a schema at conventions would greatly upset anyone. Personally, I think it would be more fun for players, except for advanced players who enjoy the flair that can come from well-planned maneuvers. In the end, it might depend upon who is at the table, and what the scenario is.

tmon
02-15-2014, 09:37
Experienced Captains wouldn't have the instantaneous knowledge of what the opposing ship was doing like we have in the game. It takes time to send orders to make changes to the sails. It's very noisy in the middle of a fight. Your's and his smoke from the cannons make it harder to see. They would have to guess not know. Truthfully dropping the second card because it's somewhat difficult is taking the easy way out.


That is correct. It worked fine, personally I feel that experienced Captains would for the most part be able to intuitively know when to call a manoeuvre with so many variables wind, veer, friends and foes not to mention obstacles and damage. Planning two cards ahead is asking for trouble. I would like to think that I can enjoy playing the wargame rather than a resource management game.

I get it in wings of war as we are talking there about split second decision making at high speed where an opponent may be outwith your visibility arc. Though these are just my own views and will now no doubt start a whole new thread.

This is a good forum with lots of interesting posts for what is a good game. Thanks

runelord
02-15-2014, 09:59
Tom it may well be the easy way out and of course for competition games the rules should be played as written. However wargamers being wargamers are never happy with a rules set and are apt to tinker in our never ending quest to find that rules nirvana. Just look at any forum variants section or indeed the plethora of available rule sets out there. I just felt that our first game felt like a game of dodgems rather than a naval fight. After more plays and AARs I may indeed revert back.

Remember you paid for the system, so as long as your gaming group are agreed on rule changes I say go for it. Better that all are enjoying their gaming than becoming disgruntled with some aspect of the rules and heh ho 3 months down the line when the next shiny new rule set comes along they all jump ship.(Pun intended). Lets face we've all been there.

I think the only set of rules I've not felt the need to change are Fire and Fury, Blitzkrieg Commander and C&C Napoleonics. Which given my 40+ years of wargaming is precious few.
Guess I'm just a tinkerer.

tmon
02-15-2014, 10:11
The trouble is you're changing a "sailing game into the equivalent of a power boat game".


Tom it may well be the easy way out and of course for competition games the rules should be played as written. However wargamers being wargamers are never happy with a rules set and are apt to tinker in our never ending quest to find that rules nirvana. Just look at any forum variants section or indeed the plethora of available rule sets out there. I just felt that our first game felt like a game of dodgems rather than a naval fight. After more plays and AARs I may indeed revert back.

Remember you paid for the system, so as long as your gaming group are agreed on rule changes I say go for it. Better that all are enjoying their gaming than becoming disgruntled with some aspect of the rules and heh ho 3 months down the line when the next shiny new rule set comes along they all jump ship.(Pun intended). Lets face we've all been there.

I think the only set of rules I've not felt the need to change are Fire and Fury, Blitzkrieg Commander and C&C Napoleonics. Which given my 40+ years of wargaming is precious few.
Guess I'm just a tinkerer.

Andy Blozinski
02-15-2014, 10:24
His comment about it becoming a game of dodge-em, is not without merit. I prefer the two card system, but there are indeed lots of problems with collisions. I think this is a combination of the short range representation of the cannons and the scale of movement representation.

7eat51
02-15-2014, 15:44
The trouble is you're changing a "sailing game into the equivalent of a power boat game".

It's only trouble if the players don't like it. A high percentage of the WoG games I have played did not use altitude, which effectively changed a three dimensional game into a two dimensional game, and in the process, they were a lot of fun.

I agree with Rick on the approach to rules as written; they are the starting point for a game; they don't have to dictate how a game is played. In the end, if the players know the rules-in-play upfront, and they enjoy themselves, who cares what the game is.

David Manley
02-17-2014, 01:44
Experienced Captains wouldn't have the instantaneous knowledge of what the opposing ship was doing like we have in the game.

But you don't have such knowledge. You know what he's done but you don't know what he's going to do. You have to make a decision based on what you think the enemy is going to do in the next few minutes. We aren't talking a matter of seconds represented by the turn of a card here.

David Manley
02-17-2014, 01:46
....... a combination of the short range representation of the cannons and the scale of movement representation.....

I'm thinking of an extended range (2x or 3x) variant for my next area of tinkering.....

KeithS
02-17-2014, 06:53
Originally Posted by tmon

Experienced Captains wouldn't have the instantaneous knowledge of what the opposing ship was doing like we have in the game.


But you don't have such knowledge. You know what he's done but you don't know what he's going to do. You have to make a decision based on what you think the enemy is going to do in the next few minutes. We aren't talking a matter of seconds represented by the turn of a card here.

I agree with David's comments on the timings associated with the cards. Additionally, surely one of the captain's functions on a real sailing ship is be well aware of the other visible ships in the vicinity and to estimate their trajectories as well as his own, so as to avoid collisions. Furthermore, if the ships are sufficiently close for collision to be a possibility I would suppose that he would be well able to see them, notwithstanding any action going on around. If so, it then becomes a question of whether the ships can take appropriate action to avoid collision.

Should the ships be on a trajectory that avoidance of a collision would require major changes to the sail settings then the collision potential would have become apparent well in advance and action could be taken in time. If it was a question of the ships being on a more or less glancing collision course then isn't it likely that the helmsman could alter the course to avoid collisions without changing sails etc. Therefore I would suggest that collisions should not be a frequent occurrence even in the heat of battle, unless they occur on purpose, for example to allow grappling.

Gunner
02-17-2014, 10:31
Has anyone tried using an extended combat ruler, say 12 or 14"? That in itself should cut down collisions. It might be a little too long for a single mat but should work well for anything larger.

Coog
02-17-2014, 11:38
Maybe Keith can produce some optional 2x rulers. I believe the current size was determined by the size of the box instead of scale.

Cpt Kangaroo
02-17-2014, 11:46
My own two cents would be, it depends on your players. If they are new to gaming or the system and you want to 'Go Easy' on them, a single card play would be fine, but soon there would be a desire for more challenge. Adding complexity to suite the needs of the game/players is a back bone quality of this system. While coordinating up to 12 players in a 4'x 8' game area, so long as you had a GM to keep everyone on track, it worked fine. (mostly it was one ship per player)

I had thought at the time, that a helmsman could 'Up Helm' a maneuver and not make quite as tight a turn as shown on the card, allowing slight last minute adjustments which would be somewhat historically accurate.

Regarding the extended ruler idea, I would only consider this option if say, 6", or what ever seemed to be correct, was added to the end of the ruler, and so keeping some distance apart for easier maneuver. If you extended the short range kill zone by simply multiplying the lengths, it would take too long to close and no boarding actions would be possible without almost losing the ship and company before grappling.
:cannonboom::cannon::takecover:

fredmiracle
02-17-2014, 11:55
Regarding the extended ruler idea, I would only consider this option if say, 6", or what ever seemed to be correct, was added to the end of the ruler, and so keeping some distance apart for easier maneuver. If you extended the short range kill zone by simply multiplying the lengths, it would take too long to close and no boarding actions would be possible without almost losing the ship and company before grappling.


Yeah that was my question. Having seen some scrums in people's pictures, the idea of having a bit more space to work with seems appealing (at least in principle--in practice I'm not sure I will have the table space).

BUT, this doesn't seem like a system that you can just naively scale up, since you're reliant on the movement cards. Perhaps if you paired an up-scale on the ruler with a dilution of the damage counters it would work...

Or else we could just scan all the cards and print them out double-size--that would be a fun project!

Gunner
02-17-2014, 12:00
All would be the same except adding 2 to 4" to the (A) section of the combat ruler.

runelord
02-17-2014, 12:38
Interesting in depth debate, I feel that the issue of collisions being too frequent may have to be a suckem and see situation. It may be that the constraints of the game need tweaking ie movement rates being dictated by a playing card size ( which has been a novel and fresh concept) or shooting by ranges using a pre printed rule which had the constraint of having to fit into the starter box.(if true)
Either time and play will show that there is no issue or the designers may have to do a rethink. However this does at its heart appear to be a quality product with some fresh ideas and I don't think the game will fail.

Gunner
02-17-2014, 12:57
And let us not forget that these ships can be used with almost all other rule sets.

runelord
02-17-2014, 14:06
And let us not forget that these ships can be used with almost all other rule sets.
I am not a big naval wargamer, so out of curiosity what are the current in vogue rules for this genre. SOG withstanding of course, and what are their particular merits.

Walram
02-17-2014, 18:52
Interesting in depth debate, I feel that the issue of collisions being too frequent may have to be a suckem and see situation. It may be that the constraints of the game need tweaking ie movement rates being dictated by a playing card size ( which has been a novel and fresh concept) or shooting by ranges using a pre printed rule which had the constraint of having to fit into the starter box.(if true)
Either time and play will show that there is no issue or the designers may have to do a rethink. However this does at its heart appear to be a quality product with some fresh ideas and I don't think the game will fail.

I think the game is new enough that the collisions will decrease as we get a better feel for maneuvering. As with Wings of War/Glory(WWI), with experience, we should get better and see far fewer collisions (although we still have one player you'd swear had a magnet in his plane's nose!)

Berthier
02-18-2014, 02:50
The scale of the game at 1/1000 means that broadside to broadside exchanges, which historically often occurred at quite close ranges of 20-200 metres, take place at 2cm to 20cm in the game and ships did not run into each other very often unless by design. Even in very cramped battles such as Trafalgar, I cant recall an episode of friendly collisions but I do seem to remember reports of ships taking evasive action to stop running up the rear of others.

Battle accounts do not seem to support the number of collisions being reported in the game. Unless there was an attempted grappling to board, that is, not an accidental collision, they may be over represented. This may be lack of familiarity with the system as David has pointed out and after gaining experience it could be a mute point.

Running aground on the other hand did occur in actions near ports and anchorages, (eg: the Nile, Copenhagen etc. ) and this happened due to poor charts and unknown waters.

TexaS
03-05-2015, 02:12
I'm thinking of an extended range (2x or 3x) variant for my next area of tinkering.....

Have there been any development in this?

I'm thinking half fire power rounded down, but always at least 1 and no special damage except sail.

John Paul
03-05-2015, 20:50
Rick,

You might want to check out the discussion on "collisions" under another heading on this forum. There have been a couple of good suggestions regarding collision avoidance there. I think the prevailing method of play has come to be playing one card at a time, and most everyone seems to think it works better. The reason being that when there are more then two ships per side some forget that the squadron/fleet commander preferred to fight his ships in line of battle rather then having all the individual captains sailing their ships around on their own whims! This was a time when the fighting was toe to toe, and may the best shooters win, you could say!

TexaS
03-06-2015, 00:46
Apart from my comment the thread is a year old. I sorry for being a grave digger, but I find that range discussion interesting and haven't seen it developed in any other thread.

Nightmoss
03-06-2015, 09:05
I'm lucky if I can find the space for one Sails of Glory mat to play on. If you start extending the range and by extension the playing surface I think you'll quickly eliminate a lot of home play. The same can be said for adding more realistic ship movement. Space is frequently at a premium for gaming, but if you have the room it's certainly an interesting option.

TexaS
03-06-2015, 09:23
I'm suspecting that there are different scales on the ships and movement/fire.

That's very common in infantry-based historical war games. Twelve miniatures represents a battalion of 600 men, but the base takes up the correct space.

There's big differences on what game space is available at any gamer's home. Some have those fantastic gaming dens with a huge gaming table and fridge. Others put the mat on the living room table for an hour or two... Both should be able to adjust the rules to fit their game. I'm probably just imagining having a bigger space, than I actually do...

fredmiracle
03-06-2015, 09:30
Yeah I love the idea of spreading huge blue tablecloths all over the living room floor for epic battles, but domestic tranquility is best preserved if I restrict my games to a folding table in the den...

David Manley
03-06-2015, 10:22
One of our previous houses had blue carpet in the lounge..... :happy:

HMS Lydia
03-06-2015, 12:57
I instituted a squadron movement system, ships moving in "Line Ahead" formation use the movement deck of the least maneuverable ship in the formation. If and when the ships move out of formation (and skirmish) they use individual decks based on their model. This has avoided collisions, along with only planning one card per turn.

As stated previously in other threads the 2 card movement planning seem counter intuitive for ships with huge rudders, and are only moving between 6-12 knots. A ship moving in this range is only moving about 400-800 yards in a 2 minute period. The captains station on a sailing ship was close enough to the helm that noise shouldn't be a factor.

As far as increasing range, the farther tou can hit someone from means maneuver area is reduced.

Devsdoc
03-06-2015, 13:38
One of our previous houses had blue carpet in the lounge..... :happy:

Why did you move? Or did the carpet go with you. Or was it a little of "She that must be obeyed". It can be hard sometimes :takecover: :girlieangry:
Be safe, you poor thing. I'm on your side
Rory

Gunner
03-06-2015, 15:16
Why did you move? Or did the carpet go with you. Or was it a little of "She that must be obeyed". It can be hard sometimes :takecover: :girlieangry:
Be safe, you poor thing. I'm on your side
Rory

Hi Rory, I thought that it's "She who must be obeyed". The only reason that's been pounded in my head is because I've been married a few times.:sad::beer:

Broadsword56
03-06-2015, 16:00
Another option to address the "more space to work with" issue would be operational games that can work with SGN.

One example is the Cyberboard computer campaign aid I'm developing for my solitaire card-assisted Lake Ontario game, "A Glorious Chance."

After you play the strategy level to trigger any encounters, the game moves to a "maneuver" level on a 1 km grid. The ship counters can do all the interesting stuff from first sighting (max 19 km) until they get to 1-2km shooting range, and then the close action goes to your table or floorspace (or can even go to a favorite tactical AoS boardgame like Serpents of the Seas, Close Action, SPI's Frigate, etc.) And, since it only stages the parameters for your tactical battles, players can use whatever minis and scales they prefer, whether it be SGN with 1:1000 scale, Langton's 1:1200, etc., before transferring the results back into the computer game. You'd can get a lot of the longer-range fun without needing a huge physical space or having to "scale up" your mini rules.



Yeah that was my question. Having seen some scrums in people's pictures, the idea of having a bit more space to work with seems appealing (at least in principle--in practice I'm not sure I will have the table space).

BUT, this doesn't seem like a system that you can just naively scale up, since you're reliant on the movement cards. Perhaps if you paired an up-scale on the ruler with a dilution of the damage counters it would work...

Or else we could just scan all the cards and print them out double-size--that would be a fun project!

John Paul
03-06-2015, 16:59
I instituted a squadron movement system, ships moving in "Line Ahead" formation use the movement deck of the least maneuverable ship in the formation. If and when the ships move out of formation (and skirmish) they use individual decks based on their model. This has avoided collisions, along with only planning one card per turn.

As stated previously in other threads the 2 card movement planning seem counter intuitive for ships with huge rudders, and are only moving between 6-12 knots. A ship moving in this range is only moving about 400-800 yards in a 2 minute period. The captains station on a sailing ship was close enough to the helm that noise shouldn't be a factor.

As far as increasing range, the farther tou can hit someone from means maneuver area is reduced.

Using a single card for the entire line until the action breaks down into "one on one" fights sounds like a good way to handle movement! :salute:

Devsdoc
03-06-2015, 17:00
Hi Rory, I thought that it's "She who must be obeyed". The only reason that's been pounded in my head is because I've been married a few times.:sad::beer:

Sorry David, Ed. I think you are right. I left out the who I bend at the knee.:surrender:
Be safe
Rory

Bligh
08-11-2015, 08:16
Coming rather late upon this scenario Rick, I find it very much in the same vein as my larger encounters. Good order prevails for a time and then all hell lets loose. I enjoyed the very atmospheric pictures you managed to produce. Very akin to several paintings of 18th C sea battles.Thanks for posting.
Rob.