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View Full Version : HMS Royal Sovereign Vs. Santa Ana--Langton 1/1200 Build WIP



Nightmoss
02-01-2014, 16:25
Sometime ago I decided I wanted to create a small 'historical' diorama using a couple of the Langton miniatures. At the same time I got some excellent advice about not necessarily making the ships permanently attached to a base and thereby eliminating any chance to use them for gaming in future.

I need some feedback on whether the Sovereign's raking shot approach at the Battle of Trafalgar is passable in this series of test photos (lots of license here for sure)? I know the wind was from the west, but very light so the wave patterns may be wrong and/or too large? Nothing's fixed in place and I'm still working on the idea of being able to remove the ships and place on smaller bases for gaming. The ships themselves have work to be done so this is more about orientation, etc. Thanks!

DeRuyter
02-05-2014, 15:31
Jim:

I think the ship positions are fine, the angles make it more dynamic. I might slide the SA to the center just a bit, but I like the look of the approaching RS - the impending destruction to come!

As for the sea state I think it is a little high, but it is often exaggerated by contemporary marine painters anyway. The one aspect that you could take out are the whitecaps. Definitely none around that day, now a couple of days later is another story!! Taking the white drybrush out would serve to calm the sea a bit.

Eric

Nightmoss
02-05-2014, 16:49
Jim:

I think the ship positions are fine, the angles make it more dynamic. I might slide the SA to the center just a bit, but I like the look of the approaching RS - the impending destruction to come!

As for the sea state I think it is a little high, but it is often exaggerated by contemporary marine painters anyway. The one aspect that you could take out are the whitecaps. Definitely none around that day, now a couple of days later is another story!! Taking the white drybrush out would serve to calm the sea a bit.

Eric

Thanks Eric for the suggestions. I'm working on another mold that is much flatter (closer to the look of the Langton bases), but your idea of taking out the whitecaps would be much easier. Cool!

Volunteer
02-07-2014, 17:58
Great idea Jim and the paint jobs look superb as usual. One question, how are you going to simulate the ship damage to the Santa Ana from the raking shot?

Gunner
02-07-2014, 18:29
Great idea Jim and the paint jobs look superb as usual. One question, how are you going to simulate the ship damage to the Santa Ana from the raking shot?

Sprinkle some dead young ants across the deck? No close up pictures please.

Volunteer
02-07-2014, 18:45
Sprinkle some dead young ants across the deck? No close up pictures please.

Make sure you paint them first!:thumbsup:

Nightmoss
02-07-2014, 19:38
Great idea Jim and the paint jobs look superb as usual. One question, how are you going to simulate the ship damage to the Santa Ana from the raking shot?

Thanks, Vol. I'm trying to find the best position to place the Sovereign just before or right at the point of the raking shot. I really don't want to damage the Santa Ana and I'd like to avoid painting small dead ants! :shock:

Still trying to come up with an interchangeable way to remove the ships and put on regular bases for possible gaming or other display, so it's all on hold at the moment.

Devsdoc
02-07-2014, 20:32
Jim,
Looking at you 2 ships which look great. How about putting both ships on game bases. leave two spaces on the bigger base for the ship bases to sit in when on diorama base. You may have to make the diorama bigger and match the gaming bases sea to the diorama sea. Good luck.
Be safe
Rory

Nightmoss
02-07-2014, 22:08
Jim,
Looking at you 2 ships which look great. How about putting both ships on game bases. leave two spaces on the bigger base for the ship bases to sit in when on diorama base. You may have to make the diorama bigger and match the gaming bases sea to the diorama sea. Good luck.
Be safe
Rory

That is one idea I was thinking might work. That current base is too choppy for Trafalgar and even after painting over the whitecaps the sea looks too rough. Thanks, Rory!

7eat51
02-08-2014, 02:00
That's splendid, Jim. I like the idea of setting up a scene. What a great way to display the ships. I can see a mini-history lesson being given to anyone who is over looking at it.

Nightmoss
03-07-2014, 15:52
As mentioned in another post I've managed to get back to the basement work area and have continued work on the Santa Ana vs. the Royal Sovereign diorama. Using rare earth magnets and steel nails mounted beneath the ships I've come up with a system that should work well enough to hold the ships in position for display, allow for some movement on the base to tweak the 'action' and also allow the ships to be removed and placed on a regular Langton base for other gaming. Photos follow (hopefully not too many)? The vertical shot is for fun. I would never trust the magnets to hold for transport, etc. even though their holding power is significant.

Volunteer
03-07-2014, 16:17
Brilliant! :drinks:

JonR
03-07-2014, 17:44
The real damage on a raking would have happened on the lower decks, so no need to represent it. But, if all guns fired as they beared there would not be much left on the decks below. If I remember correctly the load on a corronade was solid shot followed by a bucket full of musket balls. The solid shot was quite capable of taking out any mast stem it hit, and the musket shot cleaned out any thing not made of 12 inches of solid oak.

JonR
03-07-2014, 17:46
p.s. They are Langton miniatures? If so my Sails of glory ships are looking even better value.

Nightmoss
03-07-2014, 18:00
p.s. They are Langton miniatures? If so my Sails of glory ships are looking even better value.

Yup, they're Langton's. Now comes the rigging, brass ratlines, pennants and touch up painting.

JonR
03-07-2014, 18:21
Ok so ratline were how thick? The outer stays may be visible at 1/1200 scale as a slight haze, but the rat lines themselves would not. If you take the actual measurements and divide them by 1200 you may get a surprise how thin they were/would be.

Nightmoss
03-07-2014, 18:59
Ok so ratline were how thick? The outer stays may be visible at 1/1200 scale as a slight haze, but the rat lines themselves would not. If you take the actual measurements and divide them by 1200 you may get a surprise how thin they were/would be.

I expect you're correct, but at this scale "cool is the rule". It's not so much about visual accuracy as it is an overall effect or impact you get when you view the ships. I also model 'N Scale' railroads and we have the same issue of scale there as well. 'Prototypical' modelers will often approach scale scenery differently than others who are trying to create an image or impression on the viewers of a layout or module.

John Paul
03-07-2014, 19:09
Having transited that area more then a few times in my Navy days due to the currents and prevailing weather conditions in the Fall the sea off Cape Trafalgar is rarely calm. With little to no wind there wouldn't be many white caps, but there are noticeable waves in the area all the time. So your second group of pictures look to be more reflective of the sea state at the time.

Over all it's an excellent looking diorama! :thumbsup: I also agree with the picture frame idea, as that would really set it off nicely!!

Devsdoc
03-07-2014, 19:42
Nice one Jim,
Look forward to seeing them finish. Love the changer-able bases. :thumbsup:
Be safe
Rory

JonR
03-08-2014, 18:52
Cool is the rule? Not for this War gamer it isn't. One quarter inch lace on the hat of a 15mm figure! Even mine have at least two scale inches and I painted them when I could still see a 15mm figure. I find it hugely amusing that war gamers will crucify someone for having the wrong colour facings on a regiment, and yet accept the over scale detail on figures. Think about it, you got one uniform coat a year, (talking War of the Spanish succession here) which was then turned into a waistcoat the following year. What colour do you think it was? It may have started out as a sort of scarlet, (depending on dye quality) but after the first shower of rain and a month or so in the field heaven knows what it looked like. (apart from foul, and probably brownish) The French were much more pragmatic, a whitish grey was a much more reliable colour.

I had the joy a couple of weeks ago of seeing the look on the face a long time Napoleonic naval enthusiast when I dropped one of my Sails of Glory ships. He was astounded when it bounced. I need my ships to be able to be transported to and from the club, without any damage. Langton miniatures are fine, when well built and look truly beautiful in a display cabinet. Which is where I suspect most of them live. The Sails of Glory ships are a much more usable item.

Gunner
03-08-2014, 19:25
One of the things I really like about SGN is, there's room for all types of people. Collectors, diorama builders, customizers, rules lawyers, gamers, historical enthusiasts, etc. etc.
No mater which is yours, Long live Ares, Sails of Glory.

Diamondback
03-08-2014, 20:29
[Patton voice]"I'll drink to THAT!" LOL

Berthier
03-08-2014, 21:20
One of the things I really like about SGN is, there's room for all types of people. Collectors, diorama builders, customizers, rules lawyers, gamers, historical enthusiasts, etc. etc.
No mater which is yours, Long live Ares, Sails of Glory.

There might be a poll in that statement Ed. What kind of person are you? :wink::takecover:

Gunner
03-08-2014, 22:37
There might be a poll in that statement Ed. What kind of person are you? :wink::takecover:

Besides being an all around nice guy, a little of each, a fanatic of none(maybe a little heavy on the collector, customizer side).:drinks:

Edited by request.

Naharaht
03-09-2014, 01:24
Well done, Jim!:salute:

Devsdoc
03-09-2014, 15:54
I had the joy a couple of weeks ago of seeing the look on the face a long time Napoleonic naval enthusiast when I dropped one of my Sails of Glory ships. He was astounded when it bounced. I need my ships to be able to be transported to and from the club, without any damage. Langton miniatures are fine, when well built and look truly beautiful in a display cabinet. Which is where I suspect most of them live. The Sails of Glory ships are a much more usable item.

Hi Jon,
I'm glad your ship bounced. But, No! my full rigged Langton ships get moved around in box's and on many a wargame table. As not all have models my ships are used by many hands too.
Only for the frist weeks or so do mine set in a display cabinet. Until new ones take their places. So please don't think we only display them. :salute:
Be safe
Rory

Gunner
03-09-2014, 16:14
I would rather not talk about my twice dropped ,not one or two but a whole tray of Langtons, Tritons & GHQ's.:Arrrr::beer::Arrrr::beer::Arrrr::beer::beer: and that's one of the reasons I like SGN so much. (they bounce nice, so far).:thumbsup:

Nightmoss
03-18-2014, 16:39
Here's a brief photo update on the diorama. The HMS Royal Sovereign is complete. I think it's still too cold to be working in the basement. My patience with the rigging was not good and I think I had more trouble with these ratlines than I have on any other ship I've built to date. Next up is the Santa Ana. I also included a photo of the Langton Royal Sovereign with the SoG Bellona so you can see a scale comparison. Can't wait for the SoG ratlines to get here. I think they'll finish that ship off nicely. Cheers!

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Devsdoc
03-19-2014, 17:29
Hi Jim,
The 1st rates look good together, but the SOG 3rd rate and the 1st look out to me. As always I just love your work.
Be safe
Rory

Naharaht
03-19-2014, 19:07
Great work, Jim!

7eat51
03-20-2014, 13:41
Beautiful work, Jim. :hatsoff:

It will be interesting to see a Langton 1st rate and an SoG first rate together, once they're released. For those of us new to AoS minis, I wonder how the difference in scale will be perceived. I noticed the scale difference between the early and later A&A armor minis. With those, I think it would be off-putting to have them on the table at the same time.

Nightmoss
03-20-2014, 16:08
Beautiful work, Jim. :hatsoff:

It will be interesting to see a Langton 1st rate and an SoG first rate together, once they're released. For those of us new to AoS minis, I wonder how the difference in scale will be perceived. I noticed the scale difference between the early and later A&A armor minis. With those, I think it would be off-putting to have them on the table at the same time.

Thanks, Eric! I think the SoG 1st rates are going to be huge and most likely will dwarf the Langton (and especially the GHQ) versions. Look at this photo and see how the 1st rates are almost to the edge of the base?! I don't think we'll ever see SoG ships sharing the same table with the metal counterparts unless Ares releases some unique ships that can't be had via Langton, GHQ or even NavWar?