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nilliom
01-26-2014, 14:20
It is not mentionned in the rules, but is it considered ok to check the attitude of the wind while in the planning phase, to determine your next move?

Thanks

mleaman
01-26-2014, 15:00
Page 24 (standard rules). 1st paragraph. "Players may not check the attitude to the wind before choosing the maneuver card. They are only allowed to check the attitude during the movement phase."

nilliom
01-26-2014, 15:41
Damn, I missed that. Thanks for the reference.

7eat51
01-26-2014, 22:44
If you have the Ares mats, the lines should help in making an educated guess.

nilliom
01-27-2014, 05:41
Good thinking, Thanks.

fredmiracle
01-27-2014, 09:08
If you have the Ares mats, the lines should help in making an educated guess.

That seems a little cheaty :)

7eat51
01-27-2014, 09:11
That seems a little cheaty :)

I am not sure about. Not being a sailor, I will defer to those who are, but I imagine a captain would have some idea about attitude towards wind; that might not be true of players, and since players are mimicking being captains …

Пилот
01-27-2014, 15:51
They wouldn't put the lines on, if they had doubts. One of lines' purposes is exactly to help with determining attitude.

(and, yes, at first I red "altitude" :takecover: )

Avi
01-28-2014, 03:55
No experience sailing Tall-ships but some point from modern sailing -

The ships attitude to the wind is not some theoretical line "out there" its the actual wind hitting the ship and sails.
All Navy officers (and most crew) will know the exact wind attitude any time they are deck.

Sailing into the wind (taken aback) is not something that happens suddenly (one minute you are OK the next you are in trouble.
Its a gradual thing the sails become less efficient, the sail tops start to ripple. When that starts to happen the modern helmsman
will ease off a little. In older navies I guess the ships master will give the helmsman a command to do the same.

Avi
01-28-2014, 05:07
Page 24 (standard rules). 1st paragraph. "Players may not check the attitude to the wind before choosing the maneuver card. They are only allowed to check the attitude during the movement phase."

Which nicely conflicts with - (Page 10 Basic rules)

" It is forbidden to take measurements of any kind (for example, to check firing range) before planning.
The only measurement allowed is to check the ship’s wind attitude. "

I think I'll stick to basic rules on this one, in any case I do not like the whole planing rules

Пилот
01-28-2014, 05:45
Avi,

I wouldn't call it conflict, but limitation to exception. When you read both rules (pages 10 and 24), you get one simple rule:

"The only measurement allowed is to check the ship’s wind attitude, but only during the movement phase."

With this interpretation, everything fits.

longagoigo
01-28-2014, 07:47
That seems a little cheaty :)
Of course, variable wind will modify one's plans, but during movement aren't we thinking ahead several moves (based on the attitude at the moment), so re-checking during the planning phase seems unnecessary.

DeRuyter
01-31-2014, 11:49
No experience sailing Tall-ships but some point from modern sailing -

The ships attitude to the wind is not some theoretical line "out there" its the actual wind hitting the ship and sails.
All Navy officers (and most crew) will know the exact wind attitude any time they are deck.

Sailing into the wind (taken aback) is not something that happens suddenly (one minute you are OK the next you are in trouble.
Its a gradual thing the sails become less efficient, the sail tops start to ripple. When that starts to happen the modern helmsman
will ease off a little. In older navies I guess the ships master will give the helmsman a command to do the same.


Just to add to this point this is the same in tall ships, except that you must think ahead more because the larger ships won't immediately respond to the helm like a dingy or racing boat. Captains and sailing masters knew the sailing characteristics of their ships. :steer:

In square rigged ships the effect sailing to close to the wind is the same, although it is harder to see the luffing (rippling) effect on square sails, although the ship will noticeably slow down! This is how you start a tack - as soon as the heads'ls start luffing you give the command to put the helm over and once head to wind you brace the foresails around to catch the wind aback and push the bow on to the new tack (doing this wrong is called missing stays), then on the new tack you get the command "mains'l haul" and the mainyards are braced around on the tack, followed by the foreyards.

I would also point out that there are lots of ways to judge the angle of the wind onboard and if your sails are properly trimmed. On modern boats these are called "telltales".

There are occasions when you can be suddenly taken aback, mainly a gust, squall or sudden wind shift, or combat damage to the rigging or rudder could do it! Of course on the east coast of the US the wind is often fickle and in light summer air you can sail into a wind hole and literally lose the wind - very frustrating indeed.

BSG_Fan
01-31-2014, 16:57
Which nicely conflicts with - (Page 10 Basic rules)

" It is forbidden to take measurements of any kind (for example, to check firing range) before planning.
The only measurement allowed is to check the ship’s wind attitude. "

I think I'll stick to basic rules on this one, in any case I do not like the whole planing rules

I don't think it's a conflict--it's just a difference between the basic rules and the standard/advanced rules. Both the standard and advanced rules say "any previous rule that is not explicitly changed remains valid when playing with the Standard/Advanced Rules." Measuring attitude before planning is one of the rules that changes. It's similar to the way you always use one side of the card (the two sandglasses side) when you're taken aback in the basic rules, but you use both sides of the taken aback card in the basic and advanced rules--it's not a conflict, just one of the rules that it is modified in the standard/advanced rules.

fredmiracle
01-31-2014, 21:16
I don't think it's a conflict--it's just a difference between the basic rules and the standard/advanced rules. Both the standard and advanced rules say "any previous rule that is not explicitly changed remains valid when playing with the Standard/Advanced Rules." Measuring attitude before planning is one of the rules that changes.

if that was the intent, clarity would certainly have been improved by a little "unlike in the basic rules" proviso, as they do with the hourglasses

7eat51
01-31-2014, 23:52
No experience sailing Tall-ships but some point from modern sailing -

The ships attitude to the wind is not some theoretical line "out there" its the actual wind hitting the ship and sails.
All Navy officers (and most crew) will know the exact wind attitude any time they are deck.

Sailing into the wind (taken aback) is not something that happens suddenly (one minute you are OK the next you are in trouble.
Its a gradual thing the sails become less efficient, the sail tops start to ripple. When that starts to happen the modern helmsman
will ease off a little. In older navies I guess the ships master will give the helmsman a command to do the same.


Just to add to this point this is the same in tall ships, except that you must think ahead more because the larger ships won't immediately respond to the helm like a dingy or racing boat. Captains and sailing masters knew the sailing characteristics of their ships. :steer:

In square rigged ships the effect sailing to close to the wind is the same, although it is harder to see the luffing (rippling) effect on square sails, although the ship will noticeably slow down! This is how you start a tack - as soon as the heads'ls start luffing you give the command to put the helm over and once head to wind you brace the foresails around to catch the wind aback and push the bow on to the new tack (doing this wrong is called missing stays), then on the new tack you get the command "mains'l haul" and the mainyards are braced around on the tack, followed by the foreyards.

I would also point out that there are lots of ways to judge the angle of the wind onboard and if your sails are properly trimmed. On modern boats these are called "telltales".

There are occasions when you can be suddenly taken aback, mainly a gust, squall or sudden wind shift, or combat damage to the rigging or rudder could do it! Of course on the east coast of the US the wind is often fickle and in light summer air you can sail into a wind hole and literally lose the wind - very frustrating indeed.

Very interesting and informative. Thanks.

Telltales - are these adopted from this term, or are these the origin of this term? I am amazed at how many terms I, a landsman, have used in my life that have a nautical origin.

David Manley
02-01-2014, 01:36
This is another of those rules that causes a lot of head scratching, not least because ship attitude to wind is something that all but the most lubberly AoS warship driver was going to be aware of at all times unless seriously distracted or seriously grogged up. But TBH in the standard "2 card" movement system (which the more I play it the more I dislike it for its ability to reduce the game to sail-propelled dodg'ems) there would be little point in checking the attitude to wind precisely since you are plotting for the turn after the card that is about to be played without the benefit of the ship being in the correct position to judge. So in order to make use of a precise measurement you'd have to be able to translate the position of the ship in its starting position to the point at which it ends the turn, and then determine the effect of the change of heading on the wind attitude reading that you'd made initially.

7eat51
02-01-2014, 09:44
David, have you played games using one-card-at-a-time movement? If so, what was the feel of the game?