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Pseudotheist
01-13-2014, 21:15
8241
So you can pick up your ship's log and move it around the table. The card stock I used isn't thick enough to support a maneuver deck, but you can put your ship reference card in that spot if you'd like. Also, you really need a lot of tokens for this game...

Nightmoss
01-13-2014, 22:23
I like it, and it's a great idea. The creativity that's showing up now that the game is out is pretty cool.

Andy Blozinski
01-13-2014, 22:35
Since I didn't play with full crew management in the demo game, I didn't realize how many tokens there are for that. That's kind of a messy pile on the right. This is not a commentary on your organazing skills, but a comment on how many there are and I'm wondering if that becomes a distraction.

DeRuyter
01-14-2014, 12:29
The more I see all the tokens, the more appealing lamination becomes!

David Manley
01-14-2014, 12:41
The more I see all the tokens, the more appealing lamination becomes!

I must say some of my local players are rather liking the idea of "old fashioned" games with dice and ship record cards wot you mark off with pens :wink:

Still, thoughts are in hand on putting together an episodic campaign, so we shall see :happy:

The Royal Hajj
01-14-2014, 13:17
I'm working on a "Quarter Deck" product very similar to my Advanced Cockpits for Wings that will solve a lot of these issues. But like all of us, I need more game time to absorb all the little things that could be done to make the game easier to play from a components point of view.

HMS Lydia
01-14-2014, 17:54
8244

This is an example, using a non Ares ship, of my customized grease pencil ship charts. This takes the place of both the ship log and mat. And requires the use of no chits. Still testing them, but set up is super quick, and they work well with the D30 damage chart.

Fremantle
01-14-2014, 19:12
That's very nice, Bob. I like that chart a lot.

Pseudotheist
01-14-2014, 19:27
This is an example, using a non Ares ship, of my customized grease pencil ship charts. This takes the place of both the ship log and mat. And requires the use of no chits. Still testing them, but set up is super quick, and they work well with the D30 damage chart.
Nice chart. How do you handle secret info (action selection and ammo)?

7eat51
01-14-2014, 20:45
Very nice, Bob. :thumbsup:

What program did you use?

Keith, I look forward to seeing your Quarter Deck.

HMS Lydia
01-15-2014, 06:02
@Eric & Tom,

Thanks, these are done in Microsoft Excel. I scanned these to a JPEG, they are nicer in pure Excel file version. My gray purpled here for some reason. Playing our next game on Sunday, so we're working our way through the rules, I suspect some things on here can be removed or streamlined and somethings may need to be added.

@Todd,

These charts actually end up being smaller than the Mat+Log. If Secrecy becomes and issue, since all markings are grease pencil, just flip the charts over.

Bob

longagoigo
01-15-2014, 08:05
I put mine into an A4 hard card case.
8256

colby_bimore
01-03-2015, 17:12
8244

This is an example, using a non Ares ship, of my customized grease pencil ship charts. This takes the place of both the ship log and mat. And requires the use of no chits. Still testing them, but set up is super quick, and they work well with the D30 damage chart.

Hi Bob,

I was wondering if there was any new news about your custom grease pencil ship charts project?

Please advise.

Thanks.

Nightmoss
01-03-2015, 18:58
This is strange. I don't remember seeing Bob's (HMS Lydia) post. The grease pencil ship charts would be nice, especially at conventions.

colby_bimore
01-03-2015, 20:38
This is strange. I don't remember seeing Bob's (HMS Lydia) post. The grease pencil ship charts would be nice, especially at conventions.

Hi Jim,

I only stumbled upon this thread by accident. I think a chart like this would be very useful for a variety of reasons so I am hoping to see if we can get an update.

:happy:

Gunner
01-03-2015, 21:52
12463

Elmers glue and a .99 cent store clipboard works for me.:beer:

Nightmoss
01-03-2015, 22:21
Right behind the 8 ball I see? :happy:

Several reasons why this grease pencil system might be convenient. Quick set up/clean up, combined log and mat, no chits and the potential use of a D30 damage system. I know there's been discussion in the past concerning the chit damage system and statistical probabilities, but I don't recall this iteration by Bob.

It was posted last January and my brain might have been frozen due to the harsh winter?

Gunner
01-03-2015, 23:02
Right behind the 8 ball I see?

After two marriages and a few long term relationships, I'm used to it.:surrender:

fredmiracle
01-04-2015, 01:19
I'm still plugging paper ship logs. There is the need to print it out before the game, but it solves the chit-fumbling and "game table real estate" issues...

Diamondback
01-04-2015, 03:36
I'm still plugging paper ship logs. There is the need to print it out before the game, but it solves the chit-fumbling and "game table real estate" issues...
In the line of historical campaign books I'm trying to sell Ares, I plan to have masters for copy/scan/print in the back of each book. Granted, the stats are a little modified to help save game time...

Kentop
01-04-2015, 09:38
All of these are excellent and elegant solutions to streamlining gameplay while conserving table top real estate. If you guys need any help with the artwork (Ares might be more amenable if the artwork matches the current ship mats and tables) I can create that for you. You are going to need one printout per ship and a blank one you can fill in with your own custom stats for ships not included in the game. Ares should jump at the chance to reduce the cost of publishing the game. That's more profit for them and they could reduce the cost and weight of their ship packaging. It would be very easy to create a web page with radio buttons for use on a tablet. Rather than an, app, Ares could steer traffic to their website to use their online ship logs.

David Manley
01-04-2015, 11:03
It would be very easy to create a web page with radio buttons for use on a tablet. Rather than an, app, Ares could steer traffic to their website to use their online ship logs.

No good for the very many players who don't use computers or tablets I would be very wary of this.

Kentop
01-04-2015, 12:07
No good for the very many players who don't use computers or tablets I would be very wary of this.

I would think that the number of non-computer literate players would be far less than the number of players who could take advantage of the technology. Of course, there may be an inverse ratio of luddites in the west countries of England, but across the pond, I think it would be a welcome aid to those of us living in the 21st century.

Ozariig
01-04-2015, 12:17
I would think that the number of non-computer literate players would be far less than the number of players who could take advantage of the technology. Of course, there may be an inverse ratio of luddites in the west countries of England, but across the pond, I think it would be a welcome aid to those of us living in the 21st century.

I don't own a tablet and I'm a computer engineer. In my profession, tablets are for managers and the marketing department.

EDIT: That said, I think a companion app wouldn't be a bad thing at all. Just so long as "companion" doesn't turn into "requirement to play" ;)

Kentop
01-04-2015, 12:32
I don't own a tablet and I'm a computer engineer. In my profession, tablets are for managers and the marketing department.

EDIT: That said, I think a companion app wouldn't be a bad thing at all. Just so long as "companion" doesn't turn into "requirement to play" ;)

O.K., everybody on this site: raise your hands if you think adding a webpage that simulates the ship mat and log would ever lead to a "requirement to play". It's just another tool to help people enjoy the game more. It's not going to replace ship mats. Neither are the upgraded ship mats that are being discussed here. Don't worry Kevin, nobody is trying to take your slide rule away from you (by the way, there are a plethora of excellent slide rule apps for your phone, especially one made for scale modelers).

Broadsword56
01-04-2015, 13:35
Ares should jump at the chance to reduce the cost of publishing the game. That's more profit for them and they could reduce the cost and weight of their ship packaging. It would be very easy to create a web page with radio buttons for use on a tablet. Rather than an, app, Ares could steer traffic to their website to use their online ship logs.

What a great concept. And if Ares were really smart, they's install some analytics to gather data in the background about who's playing and when, what scenarios and ships, and how the ships fared in the battles. Then they could use the ongoing play data to better refine their game system, and to better target their marketing. Players wouldn't have to use the web logs, but those willing to share this type of data and accept the terms would get access to use them.

David Manley
01-04-2015, 13:36
I think having something like this as a free download would be ideal

I think reducing Ares costs by going "soft" would be tantamount to cutting their throat.


there may be an inverse ratio of luddites in the west countries of England, but across the pond, I think it would be a welcome aid to those of us living in the 21st century.


I'll excuse you for not realising the rest of the world is also in the 21st century - last time I was at a major defence contractor in Moorestown we were (actually not very) surprised to hear from some of the staff that they weren't aware that we had TV in England. OK that was 20 years ago but I can see how the news might not have spread to the "West Country of the United States" :happy:

FWIW I game with dozens of players across the UK, and I'm in close contact with a great many US players. The number who use tablets, computer moderated rules, etc. in their wargaming I can count on the fingers of one hand. many of them are, like Ozariig, in high tech jobs in government defence and other industries, and they like to get away from that s**t for a change when they play.

David Manley
01-04-2015, 13:44
O.K., everybody on this site: raise your hands if you think adding a webpage that simulates the ship mat and log would ever lead to a "requirement to play".

No, because that would probably kill the game. But thats what you hinted at strongly. How else could they "reduce the cost of publishing" and "reduce the cost and weight of their ship packaging"?

Ozariig
01-04-2015, 13:45
Ares should jump at the chance to reduce the cost of publishing the game. That's more profit for them and they could reduce the cost and weight of their ship packaging.


O.K., everybody on this site: raise your hands if you think adding a webpage that simulates the ship mat and log would ever lead to a "requirement to play". It's just another tool to help people enjoy the game more. It's not going to replace ship mats.

Please forgive me if I misread your first post. If they stopped packaging ship logs with their ships in favour of a web-based option, that would implicitly make their website a requirement to play. In fact, it would be worse than a companion app because an internet connection would also be required, in addition to the tablet/laptop. Imposing those restrictions would have to add some serious value before I would green-light that project.

Don't get me wrong. I'm in favour of companion apps. But I'm with David in surmising that "reducing the cost and weight of their ship packaging" would also put an unnecessary limit on the number of potential customers for the game.

Kentop
01-04-2015, 13:56
It's all about convenience, David. I use a Kindle to read books now. The books cost less, I never lose my place, and I don't have to burn a light bulb. If it's not for you, fine. I find that most people in "high tech government jobs" are secret Luddites anyway (that's why the government is so broken). Right now, there isn't anything available for SOG gaming in the form of apps or anything else. Give it a few years. I golf, and it used to be that you would never see anyone using a golf app on the course. Now, everybody in my golf league uses the things (they are still banned by the USGA for our tournaments, though). I also remember that, growing up in Suffolk, England, the telly had BBC 1 and later 2, and they both signed off at 11:00pm

David Manley
01-04-2015, 13:59
O.K., everybody on this site: raise your hands if you think adding a webpage that simulates the ship mat and log would ever lead to a "requirement to play".

No, because that would probably kill the game. But thats what you hinted at strongly. How else could they "reduce the cost of publishing" and "reduce the cost and weight of their ship packaging"?

David Manley
01-04-2015, 14:04
It's all about convenience, David. I use a Kindle to read books now. The books cost less, I never lose my place, and I don't have to burn a light bulb. If it's not for you, fine. I find that most people in "high tech government jobs" are secret Luddites anyway (that's why the government is so broken). Right now, there isn't anything available for SOG gaming in the form of apps or anything else. Give it a few years. I golf, and it used to be that you would never see anyone using a golf app on the course. Now, everybody in my golf league uses the things (they are still banned by the USGA for our tournaments, though). I also remember that, growing up in Suffolk, England, the telly had BBC 1 and later 2, and they both signed off at 11:00pm

Oh, I understand completely about convenience. But I also understand that whilst its OK as an option if the game in any way became dependent on soft copy, or if it became a "two tier" hobby then that would be a very bad thing.

And, btw, I didn't limit "high tech" to government. Those you perceive as "luddites" are equally as prevalent in private practice and industry. Probably explains why they are so broken as well. Or lacking in worldly knowledge.

David Manley
01-04-2015, 14:11
It's all about convenience, David. I use a Kindle to read books now. The books cost less, I never lose my place, and I don't have to burn a light bulb.

I do a lot of my casual reading on a kobo, similar thing. Its fine for light stuff, and very convenient when travelling now that the archaic restrictions on electronics on airliners have been revised. For decent technical reading its paper all the way. No way yet that you can match the readability and versatility of a hard copy. A PDF or soft copy is OK for casual reference but not when serious work is at hand It'll come, just not yet (looking forward to an A0-capable Kindle!). And even my kids,who are always on tablets, PCs and smartphones appreciate the joy of a real book.

Kentop
01-04-2015, 14:22
Oh, I understand completely about convenience. But I also understand that whilst its OK as an option if the game in any way became dependent on soft copy, or if it became a "two tier" hobby then that would be a very bad thing.

And, btw, I didn't limit "high tech" to government. Those you perceive as "luddites" are equally as prevalent in private practice and industry. Probably explains why they are so broken as well. Or lacking in worldly knowledge.

Your fears of exclusion are unwarranted. The game will evolve. There's no downside to making the game more profitable for the owners and more convenient for the players. Baseball is pretty popular "out west" in this country. We even have a vintage baseball league (http://www.arizonavintagebaseball.com). The league plays using the 1860 rules! I prefer modern baseball, but old times games are fun too. So relax, there's room for everybody.

David Manley
01-04-2015, 14:26
Ok, so how do you square reduced production and shipping costs, weights etc? Would you expect Ares to sell one line of miniatures with cards and one without?

Why not go the whole hog, dispense with the miniatures as well and just play the whole thing networked on PCs and tabs?

Kentop
01-04-2015, 14:31
No, because that would probably kill the game. But thats what you hinted at strongly. How else could they "reduce the cost of publishing" and "reduce the cost and weight of their ship packaging"?

ARES could reduce the cost of packaging by not having to include a ship log with each ship. Instead, they could include a lightweight erasable ship mat. The weight savings per unit shipped would earn them a fine profit that they could sink into wave 4 ships. The savings in publication costs (no more expensive die-cutting, varnishing thick cardboard stock) would save a them lot more money and make the game easier to play. I don't see how a change like that would "kill" the game.

7eat51
01-04-2015, 14:32
I would think that the number of non-computer literate players would be far less than the number of players who could take advantage of the technology. Of course, there may be an inverse ratio of luddites in the west countries of England, but across the pond, I think it would be a welcome aid to those of us living in the 21st century.

Kenneth, this made me laugh. I was talking with one of my oldest friends yesterday, and we were having a laugh that I am an administrator here and on the 'Drome. Why? I am fairly technologically illiterate, and another dear friend calls me a Luddite. I did have a computer class using punch cards, but that skill doesn't seem in demand these days.

David Manley
01-04-2015, 14:33
Because you were tying that development to a web-based aspect.

Kind of goes against the "play out of the box" element.

Kentop
01-04-2015, 14:39
Ok, so how do you square reduced production and shipping costs, weights etc? Would you expect Ares to sell one line of miniatures with cards and one without?

Why not go the whole hog, dispense with the miniatures as well and just play the whole thing networked on PCs and tabs?

Your argument ad absurdum is exactly what I'm talking about. I think that the upgraded ship mat is a major improvement to the game. It would be much cheaper to print out a single sheet of high quality reusable stock than paying for all those die cut ship logs everybody is going to stop using anyway. The weight per unit shipped is greatly reduced, too. It's win-win and ARES remains in control of the product, instead of everybody using someone else's product thus reducing their profit from game extras.

Kentop
01-04-2015, 14:40
Because you were tying that development to a web-based aspect.

Kind of goes against the "play out of the box" element.


The web based aspect only duplicates the stuff in the box.

Kentop
01-04-2015, 14:44
Kenneth, this made me laugh. I was talking with one of my oldest friends yesterday, and we were having a laugh that I am an administrator here and on the 'Drome. Why? I am fairly technologically illiterate, and another dear friend calls me a Luddite. I did have a computer class using punch cards, but that skill doesn't seem in demand these days.

I learned Fortran in college. I may still have the text book somewhere, right next to my DOS 1.1 book.

7eat51
01-04-2015, 14:48
In the games I have run at our FLGS and cons, and when playing with family and friends in our homes, I can't imagine many who would use an electronic device with this game. I think one of the things we enjoy is the lack of electronic interaction. That might be a reflection of the community I am a part of, I realize, and not consistent with others. I will ask them, though.

I do think it would benefit Ares to put downloadable blank ship mats/logs, and possibly printed ones, on the website, especially if they continue providing the hardcopies with the ships. If nothing else, it would engender goodwill while not costing them sales.

I agree with David's comment about "out of the box". I think requiring folks to go to the website due to non-complete components in the box would be counterproductive.

David Manley
01-04-2015, 14:50
Ok, so there is no online element to what you are suggesting, just a wipe-clean log which presumably folds up in the box instead of the cards.

I recall there were discussions at an early stage about how ship record cards should be presented, and something similar to this was, I think suggested.

Actually something like this might help players using non-Ares models as a simple photocopy of an existing wipe-clean log and a laminator would work OK.

Other benefits - chits could be replaced in the chit bags to preserve statistical correctess (and the chit sets themselves probably reduced in terms of the number of chits whilst retaining the same probabilities of draw - or even dispensed with completely and replaced with die rolls)

David Manley
01-04-2015, 14:52
I learned Fortran in college

Still plenty of defense and aviation contractors in the US and elsewhere working in Fortran - could be a nice side job for you

David Manley
01-04-2015, 14:53
I think that the upgraded ship mat is a major improvement to the game

I actually agree with you there. Its basically what I've been using for naval wargaming for about 35 years.

7eat51
01-04-2015, 14:57
It would be much cheaper to print out a single sheet of high quality reusable stock than paying for all those die cut ship logs everybody is going to stop using anyway. The weight per unit shipped is greatly reduced, too. It's win-win and ARES remains in control of the product, instead of everybody using someone else's product thus reducing their profit from game extras.

I really don't know a good solution for first time purchases. I agree that, in time, more and more folks will replace the issued mats/logs with ones of their own creation, especially something that does away with the chits. I also agree that anything that can reduce the price of ships would be a good thing. But I can't help thinking that many will want to open a box and be able to play. My bigger concern is the cost of entry. I think Ares would do well to capture folks via the dual/duel packs we discussed, and if possible, some form of laminated logs/mats.

7eat51
01-04-2015, 15:00
Other benefits - chits could be replaced in the chit bags to preserve statistical correctess (and the chit sets themselves probably reduced in terms of the number of chits whilst retaining the same probabilities of draw - or even dispensed with completely and replaced with die rolls)

Exactly what we have been doing with the laminated logs/mats. I really like this benefit; it makes sense to me. With WoG, I use multiple damage decks to compensate.

Kentop
01-04-2015, 15:55
Still plenty of defense and aviation contractors in the US and elsewhere working in Fortran - could be a nice side job for you\

That's what I meant by "secret luddites". Those guys that cling to punch card era code and turn their noses up at newfangled code like COBAL. I remember back in the day when I had an argument with the system administrator (of a centralized DEX-VAX system) about the merits of a GUI apple versus a Dos prompt. The guy was absolutely convinced that a GUI interface would never catch on with professionals, and you couldn't possibly do with a GUI what he could do with DOS prompt commands. I guess everybody remembers the millennium bug. Computer code was so outdated even then that it used only two digits for the year. COBOL was guilty of this. And yet, COBOL still chugs along, long after DOS became a distant memory.

David Manley
01-04-2015, 16:04
Nowt wrong wi' DOS 5 :)

Kentop
01-04-2015, 16:22
Nowt wrong wi' DOS 5 :)


I agree. DOS 6 was a pig. DOS 5 was the best of the bunch. There are lots of free virtual DOS emulators that run on modern machines. I'll use DOSbox once every year or so when I get the urge to play with AUTOEXEC.BAT commands.

Andy Blozinski
01-04-2015, 17:23
Many modern computer games require you to log into their internet site to play. I refuse to play those games.

Kentop
01-04-2015, 17:28
Many modern computer games require you to log into their internet site to play. I refuse to play those games.

You're required to log in here in order to post anything. What's the difference?

fredmiracle
01-05-2015, 01:23
A couple of things.

First I remain unconvinced that an app would be easy to use, even if one was made for all platforms. In principle it should be as easy as paper. But if you have several ships in play, coupled with limited screen size and input capabilities, then the pain getting a handful of chits into the app could easily eclipse the benefits.

The other thing is that while I think paper or grease pencil are ultimately better, the IDEA of having no tracking worksheets is probably very appealing to more casual gamers. It just sounds better.

So I can see how Ares ended up where they are...

7eat51
01-05-2015, 01:48
the IDEA of having no tracking worksheets is probably very appealing to more casual gamers. It just sounds better.

So I can see how Ares ended up where they are...

Hi Fred,

Do you think folks find chits on a mat as less daunting than markings on a sheet? If so, that is interesting.

When I introduce the laminated logs/mats to players familiar with the game, I always receive a positive response. They view the lamination and markings as a solution or improvement to the issued chits and logs/mats. I guess in some ways, moving and placing chits could seem more like discrete actions as opposed to a continuous form of record keeping, but I have found the reality to be somewhat the opposite.

fredmiracle
01-05-2015, 08:53
Hi Fred,

Do you think folks find chits on a mat as less daunting than markings on a sheet? If so, that is interesting.

When I introduce the laminated logs/mats to players familiar with the game, I always receive a positive response. They view the lamination and markings as a solution or improvement to the issued chits and logs/mats. I guess in some ways, moving and placing chits could seem more like discrete actions as opposed to a continuous form of record keeping, but I have found the reality to be somewhat the opposite.

It's precisely a question of perception vs. reality. The reality is just as you say. But I think any game with "bookkeeping" tends to be perceived as complicated and not for casual gamers. My feeling is that moving and placing chits doesn't sound like bookkeeping, until you start dealing with it and realize it is mildly annoying and could be done better...

7eat51
01-05-2015, 09:18
It's precisely a question of perception vs. reality. The reality is just as you say. But I think any game with "bookkeeping" tends to be perceived as complicated and not for casual gamers. My feeling is that moving and placing chits doesn't sound like bookkeeping, until you start dealing with it and realize it is mildly annoying and could be done better...

I thought that is what you meant, and I agree. I think that is why prior players have responded positively to the laminated logs/mats. When I first received the KS games, I liked the chits, etc. Now, I will not use them anymore. As previously stated, I also like the idea of replacing the chits for consistent probabilities.

Nightmoss
01-05-2015, 09:52
I thought that is what you meant, and I agree. I think that is why prior players have responded positively to the laminated logs/mats. When I first received the KS games, I liked the chits, etc. Now, I will not use them anymore. As previously stated, I also like the idea of replacing the chits for consistent probabilities.

Dumb question time, Eric. If you're not using the chits anymore, what are you using? Dice, a random numbers generator or what? Just curious as the OP in this thread mentions D30 as a possible tool. Thanks.

7eat51
01-05-2015, 10:13
No chits for record keeping. I am still using the damage chits, and with the laminated logs/mats, I can replace the chits maintaining the original probabilities. It works out great. I think I will use damage chits as opposed to dice because people seem to enjoy the flipping of the chits on the table and seeing what has happened. The same probably would be true with dice, but with replacement, the need/desire for dice has lessened.

HMS Lydia
01-05-2015, 11:13
This is strange. I don't remember seeing Bob's (HMS Lydia) post. The grease pencil ship charts would be nice, especially at conventions.

Guys,

I requested permission to load specific charts in the download section. But because the charts are based on the copyrighted, I was told I could only post a template. I posted a template which was corrupted when the site went down (was hacked?). I didn't reload it because it was too confusing and even with instructions, people not familiar with Excel couldn't modify them.

I am willing to share them. If you will PM me your e-mail address I'll send you some. You will have to print them and them cut them down, and laminate them. Or you can print on demand and use pencil.

One side note, these charts are smaller and therefore take up less table space that the ones provided in the game by Ares. We started using a dice damage table, and then ended up using the damage chits. We take the chits and place them in neat little treasure chests. When the bags deplete to a certain level we refill that bag.

DeRuyter asked me why the British ships have two reload boxes. I added the extra load box in case you wanted to apply the poor gunnery training trait to a British ship. The card shown is an older version and these have been improved.

fredmiracle
01-05-2015, 11:44
No chits for record keeping. I am still using the damage chits, and with the laminated logs/mats, I can replace the chits maintaining the original probabilities. It works out great. I think I will use damage chits as opposed to dice because people seem to enjoy the flipping of the chits on the table and seeing what has happened. The same probably would be true with dice, but with replacement, the need/desire for dice has lessened.

Not only are chits somewhat fun, but they serve to track the damage accrued within a given turn, while simultaneous damage is figured out. This becomes more important once you have multiple ships on each side.

We simply pile up the damage markers next to each ship that is targeted during a given gunnery phase. Once all the shooting is done we record the results and put all the chits back in the bag. Dice would add more overhead, since we would need to either keep a temporary tally somewhere, or mark the damage but remember that it was new and didn't affect the ship until next turn...

HMS Lydia
01-05-2015, 11:50
Not only are chits somewhat fun, but they serve to track the damage accrued within a given turn, while simultaneous damage is figured out. This becomes more important once you have multiple ships on each side.

We simply pile up the damage markers next to each ship that is targeted during a given gunnery phase. Once all the shooting is done we record the results and put all the chits back in the bag. Dice would add more overhead, since we would need to either keep a temporary tally somewhere, or mark the damage but remember that it was new and didn't affect the ship until next turn...

Yes, the dice tally is why we found the dice chart to be overly cumbersome. We pretty much mirror your method, except we discard chits into little treasure chests, until the bags are well depleted.

Nightmoss
01-05-2015, 12:05
No chits for record keeping. I am still using the damage chits, and with the laminated logs/mats, I can replace the chits maintaining the original probabilities. It works out great. I think I will use damage chits as opposed to dice because people seem to enjoy the flipping of the chits on the table and seeing what has happened. The same probably would be true with dice, but with replacement, the need/desire for dice has lessened.

Thanks Eric. I thought that was what you were doing, but wanted to be sure. So, the laminated mats/logs are a bookkeeping convenience, and a good one at that. I do like the idea of returning the chits back to their bags to maintain the statistical probabilities. That's not something I've been doing in the solo games I've played so perhaps I need to rethink that part of the scenarios?

fredmiracle
01-05-2015, 12:17
I've posted about this before, but maybe it's worth repeating for anyone new...

The paper/pencil ship mats I'm using can be made with the Excel file here:
http://sailsofglory.org/downloads.php?do=file&id=83
(Unfortunately it doesn't work with Open Office...)

There is a tab "Ship Mats". It has four ship-mats. For each of these mats, you can select the name box at the upper left, and then use a dropdown to select whichever ship you want. Based on that, all the rest of the data will be populated automatically. If you blank out the name, then the data will be blanked. The 4 mats will print on one 8x11" sheet of paper.

It is quite easy to mark damage, as well as the ammo status, actions, and sail status for each turn, using pencil (I say pencil, because occasionally you will need to erase, based on repairs, etc.) There are some suggested abbreviations at the bottom for indicating actions, ammo and sails.

The logs look like this (this is scaled down a bit):
12468

I would love to see a web page that did this, so it wasn't restricted to Excel (but of course one nice thing about Excel is that you can add your own ships & stats to the first page of the worksheet, and then make ship mats using them)

Diamondback
01-05-2015, 12:35
Other problems with going pure-digital:

1. Not every venue has Wi-Fi, and some of us don't like getting gang-raped on data rates. You'd need an Offline version.
2. Murphy's Law. Batteries die, gear goes belly-up--pencil and paper preserves a record, and doesn't move like the existing chits when some 1/4-ton Jabba the Hutt wannabe slams his bubble-butt into the table.

More later, gotta run for a bus.

Nightmoss
01-05-2015, 13:08
Fred, I had to go searching, but I did find your spreadsheet on my system. I haven't printed anything out to date, but I recall the dropdown ship selection was certainly a nice feature.

TexaS
02-16-2015, 15:33
I have a ships log for keeping track with a pencil (and eraser) instead of counters.

Some symbols are quite small...
I print two to an A4, but I don't think size is a big problem when you can walk around with it in your hand. You just have to keep track of your planned moves.

12928

Devsdoc
02-16-2015, 18:34
I have a ships log for keeping track with a pencil (and eraser) instead of counters.

Some symbols are quite small...
I print two to an A4, but I don't think size is a big problem when you can walk around with it in your hand. You just have to keep track of your planned moves.

12928

Jonas,
Nice, very nice. If this was in the box I may have gone for it. :salute:
Be safe
Rory

HMS Lydia
02-17-2015, 09:29
Guys,

I created a D30 damage chart, it was discussed in another thread somewhere. I quickly stopped using it. While I agree with Eric, that statistically you get a better damage flow, it slowed the game down too much. The damage chits are faster. By the way I sen Jim and Colby my latest version charts which are slightly different that what was scanned and posted previously. The dice didn't slow the game down that much, but players got impatient with it. I find passing the damage set bags around tedious. But anyway, its all personal preference.

I have now charted the new expansion ships (Spanish and new British ships), just waiting on the HMS Victory and USS Constitution.

Nightmoss
02-17-2015, 09:52
Bob's charts are excellent! He sent me 6 samples back in early January. I've just not had the time to use them, but I certainly will at some point. :thumbsup:

7eat51
02-18-2015, 11:24
Bob, what I have found is that folks like it when I pull out and toss the damage chits on the table. Everyone gathers to see what is going to happen - almost like watching lottery balls. Because we use laminated ship logs/mats, I replace the chits. The only probability issue is within a given turn, but by using multiple damage chit sets, I mitigated the negative effects a bit.

fredmiracle
02-18-2015, 11:38
Bob, what I have found is that folks like it when I pull out and toss the damage chits on the table. Everyone gathers to see what is going to happen - almost like watching lottery balls. Because we use laminated ship logs/mats, I replace the chits. The only probability issue is within a given turn, but by using multiple damage chit sets, I mitigated the negative effects a bit.

Yes I think this is the perfect way to play--draw the chits, record the damage, put them back in the bag.

HMS Lydia
02-18-2015, 11:54
Bob, what I have found is that folks like it when I pull out and toss the damage chits on the table. Everyone gathers to see what is going to happen - almost like watching lottery balls. Because we use laminated ship logs/mats, I replace the chits. The only probability issue is within a given turn, but by using multiple damage chit sets, I mitigated the negative effects a bit.

Eric, I agree. I place drawn chits in small treasure/sea chests. But, I like your method better.:thumbsup: Statistically, I don't think there are enough mast hits.

fredmiracle
02-18-2015, 12:02
Statistically, I don't think there are enough mast hits.

I've built my own assortment now, in which I combined two chit sets, but from one of them I dropped the fire damage, most of the large hits (3+) and some of the crew hits. Part of the reason was to get a higher proportion of sail and mast hits, but even so I think it's still too few.

Anyway I've only had time to play it once, so the jury is still out.

TexaS
02-18-2015, 12:03
Great idea, Fred... I might just try that one!

Diamondback
02-18-2015, 13:35
There's an idea for Ares--an Upgrade Set that instead of paper chits, prints the chit's damage on a small black plastic ball--going for a "cannonball" effect. :)