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Pseudotheist
01-10-2014, 21:44
Has anyone else considered making shoals a little more interesting? Based on the theory that a ships draft is proportional to it's burden I was thinking of assigning shoals drafts (or depths) when they are placed. Ships of with burden less than or equal to the depth may move over shoals freely. Ships with greater burdens will run aground as per the rules. For a more uncertain varaint, you can draw a B chit when a ship contacts a shoal; use the value of the chip as the depth value.

David Manley
01-11-2014, 05:39
I love this idea. In fact its similar to the systems that I've used in the past in other rules. Extremely handy when you are putting together scenarios close inshore involving larger ships and coasters, and then it gives you a much better appreciation as to why small ships are crucial in your overall ORBAT :happy:

Moideeb
01-11-2014, 06:50
This is a great idea and makes shoals much more interesting. This will also give frigates an advantage enabling them to escape from SOLs or even lure them onto the shoals during a pursuit, then sit off their stern and rake them.

I have been considering creating a kedging rule as well, as i feel that having a ship trapped for the rest of the game seems like a boring prospect for that player. In a basic game, a player could flip a coin every two turns if the shoal is hit while the ship is reaching or running or every one turn if its beating or taken aback. Heads its free, tails its still stuck. Then when the ship is released, its always taken aback. Though this might need tweaking.

Toothless9
01-11-2014, 10:20
How long is the time span for a scenario? If a ship were to get stuck on a shoal, a rising tide May free up the ship after five or six turns but if this time span is only a over 1 hour and all crew is eliminated, then maybe it will be considered captured and reflagged by the victor and brought back in a campaign game. One could even draw a chit to determine if the is tide high or low before the engagement. If a low tide were the condition, then the situation outlined above could exist. If the tide were high, then a following low tide would only keep the ship stuck, essentially shipwrecked.

7eat51
01-11-2014, 11:30
Neat idea, Todd - simple and elegant.

Now with the game coming in-hand, it will be great seeing the development of house rules.

Cmmdre
01-11-2014, 11:53
I really like all these ideas - shoals, tide schedules, traps, etc... This is why I love this site. Brilliant work gents.

Nightmoss
01-11-2014, 17:08
Has anyone else considered making shoals a little more interesting? Based on the theory that a ships draft is proportional to it's burden I was thinking of assigning shoals drafts (or depths) when they are placed. Ships of with burden less than or equal to the depth may move over shoals freely. Ships with greater burdens will run aground as per the rules. For a more uncertain varaint, you can draw a B chit when a ship contacts a shoal; use the value of the chip as the depth value.

Ironically enough, I just watched Pirates of the Caribbean: Curse of the Black Pearl and that's exactly how the HMS Interceptor was trying to escape the Black Pearl. Of course that whole scene sequence was hard to accept with a club hauling at what looked to be high speed. And even if it was possible, why didn't the Interceptor take the raking shot on the bow of the Pearl? I know Suspension of Disbelief.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kq0sXv6YeJM

csadn
01-11-2014, 17:34
why didn't the Interceptor take the raking shot on the bow of the Pearl?

Not enough crew to work the guns; and not enough guns for it to matter anyway.

The Royal Hajj
01-13-2014, 09:21
Yep, good idea Todd!

I think unless the scenario calls for it, the shoal depth should be secret. Sailing over a shoal should always run a risk regardless of what size burden you have. Besides, if you make the depths so that everyone can see them, any ship that has too great a burden will simply avoid them. While that will allow the smaller ships some "terrain" to run around, larger ships will never run aground on them except for in extreme mistakes. Not sure if that is the effect we are looking for here?

Moideeb
01-13-2014, 13:38
Yep, good idea Todd!

I think unless the scenario calls for it, the shoal depth should be secret. Sailing over a shoal should always run a risk regardless of what size burden you have. Besides, if you make the depths so that everyone can see them, any ship that has too great a burden will simply avoid them. While that will allow the smaller ships some "terrain" to run around, larger ships will never run aground on them except for in extreme mistakes. Not sure if that is the effect we are looking for here?

I think Todd's idea of drawing B chits to determine shoal depth would work and keep that risk. Frigates will still run a risk of grounding, but not nearly as much of one. If being pursued by a SOL, i might well choose to chance the shoals with a frigate. Plus with the standard rules of planning moves two turns ahead, it would be easier to make navigational errors and run onto shoals by mistake.

Im hoping to have a game tomorrow night, depending on work. if i can get a game in, i'll test this out to see how it goes.

The Royal Hajj
01-13-2014, 13:47
Yes, the B chit would work. Should we just pull it when the first ship passes over the shoal, note the number and return it to the bag? If we do it that way, the SoL will still get to know if he can cross it or not. Now if the smaller ship gets stuck, than of course the SoL would know he would too. But if the frigate makes it, the SoL would not know if he could until he tried it.

Should each ship draw it's own chit?

Moideeb
01-13-2014, 13:52
Yes, the B chit would work. Should we just pull it when the first ship passes over the shoal, note the number and return it to the bag?

That would seem logical. Unless once the chit is drawn, it is then placed facedown on the shoal, so other ships don't know the depth until they pass over it too, but the depth is set.

DeRuyter
01-13-2014, 15:29
Yep, good idea Todd!

I think unless the scenario calls for it, the shoal depth should be secret. Sailing over a shoal should always run a risk regardless of what size burden you have. Besides, if you make the depths so that everyone can see them, any ship that has too great a burden will simply avoid them. While that will allow the smaller ships some "terrain" to run around, larger ships will never run aground on them except for in extreme mistakes. Not sure if that is the effect we are looking for here?

I think it depends whether the goal is a generic "shoal rule" to spice up shoal effects or something more scenario specific. As you noted the scenario may call for one side to have knowledge of the shoal depths and locations. Erin's Grand Port scenario for example.

Pseudotheist
01-13-2014, 20:32
That would seem logical. Unless once the chit is drawn, it is then placed facedown on the shoal, so other ships don't know the depth until they pass over it too, but the depth is set.

The face down B chit could work, but I'm not generally a fan of picking a secret depth because that effectiely introduces a moderator role where there doesn't otherwise need to be one. You could let the home navy decide, but then the British are always going to pick 2 and the French either 4 or 1. For casual play I'd be inclined to just go with 4 usually, or draw on a ship-by-ship basis. You can account for discrepancies on which ships get caught with any number of excuses: the shoal is shallower on the southern side, or the tide has gone out, or the maps are a bit out of date and the actual location of the shoal has shifted some...

David Manley
01-14-2014, 00:20
One approach may be to allow a "defending" side to have home advantage, detailed knowledge of the safe depth in each part of the board. An attacker may have less idea; they may know the extent of she shoaling and shallows, but not how shallow it is. You could also allow slow moving ships moving into initial contact with a shoal to have a leadsman on board or in a boat taking depth soundings as they approach.

Пилот
01-26-2014, 02:40
Todd,

very good idea! I am going to use it in scenarios.


One approach may be to allow a "defending" side to have home advantage, detailed knowledge of the safe depth in each part of the board. An attacker may have less idea; they may know the extent of she shoaling and shallows, but not how shallow it is. You could also allow slow moving ships moving into initial contact with a shoal to have a leadsman on board or in a boat taking depth soundings as they approach.

I'm prone to David's view - home vs. visitor sounds OK. Of course, decision should be made before the game.

Tradewinds Ted
01-27-2014, 18:01
I suggest setting the depth of the shoal, but rolling a "fudge" die (+,-,0) or two, to modify the depth slightly as each ship attempts to cross the shoals. That simulates the idea that shoals do shift and are uneven, so there can be general knowledge of the shoal depth, but not certainty. The SOL should generally avoid a known shallow shoal, but the frigate shouldn't necessarily be certain to clear it. Even if one ship crosses, the next ship of the same burden might not.

Potentially the die could be rolled again each turn after a ship has run aground, to determine whether it can break free. Of course larger ships would be less likely to succeed.

This could even be combined with the home vs visitor concept. The home side could place a slip of paper under the shoal with the nominal depth, which would only be revealed to opposing ships as they attempt a crossing. But even then the value would be modified by the die. Of course the enemy could gain some insight by seeing what the home ships do, and whether they clear or run aground, but that seems realistic too.

Пилот
01-27-2014, 19:11
I would add: If ship crosses the shoal, there's no reason to reveal it's depth. And if ship runs aground, shoal's nominal depth should be revealed to run aground ship's owner.