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View Full Version : Historical Order of Battle: 1798 Aug 1-3, Battle of the Nile



Diamondback
01-02-2014, 21:57
Here's a decent squadron action that should work nicely for SGN...

Ships in green are exact sculpts, orange are near-sisters or related designs or close-enoughs. Bold is "Side A" SGN ships, italics is "Side B" cards.


1-3 Aug 1798, Battle of the Nile


Rating
British Squadron
French Squadron


1
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SGN106 Ocean 110: L'Orient


3
SGN104 Slade Common 74: Vanguard, Bellerophon, Defence, Goliath, Zealous, Audacious, Theseus, Swiftsure
SGN104 as 1765 Canada 74: Orion, Majestic
SGN104 as 1778 Alfred 74: Alexander
1782 Ganges 74: Culloden
1783 Carnatic 74: Minotaur

Wave 4 Tonnant/Bucentaure 80: Tonnant, Franklin, Guillaume Tell
1750 Magnifique 74: Guerrier
1757 Souverain 74: Peuple Souverain
1764 Citoyen 74: Conquerant
1782 Centaure 74: Heureux, Mercure
SGN102 1782 Temeraire 74: Timoleon (ex-Commerce de Bordeaux), Spartiate, Aquilon, Genereux



5
SGN110 Portland 50: Leander

1796 Diane one-off 40/48
SGN105 as 1794 Virginie 40/44 (Hebe): Justice 44
SGN101 as 1777 Magicienne 32/36 (Concorde): Artemise 36, Serieuse 36



Unrated
ex-FR Belliqueuse 12 gun-brig: Mutine (upgunned to 16-18)

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Coog
01-02-2014, 22:01
That's a lot of 74's.

Diamondback
01-02-2014, 22:17
True, but it's still a fairly small action compared to Glorious First of June or Trafalgar. Needs a dozen more sculpts or so, but it's already off to a sizable start with just Wave 1 and 2 sculpts.

7eat51
01-02-2014, 22:18
How difficult would it be to upgrade the issued frigates to the larger ones represented here?

Nightmoss
01-02-2014, 22:37
Would be an impressive gaming event for any convention; Origins, GenCon, Rock Con, NavCon, etc.?

Diamondback
01-02-2014, 22:39
Eric, at least one Magicienne-class is in the Side B pool for the Concorde sculpt and they've been ruled "acceptable reprint candidates"--it's hard to tell most of the various 1777 French 32 designs apart, and most eventually were upgunned to 36's (the additionals being mounted on the QD and FC). Justice and her Virginie-class sisters are a near-identical except gun-count derivative of the French Hebes we're getting in Wave 2. (Hence those paranthetical notes...)

I don't have much on Diane, she's a one-off by Penetreau, who was one of the "sideshow" players of French naval architects. Leander is a two-decker, roughly similar in layout to the HMS Serapis which John Paul Jones faced at Flamborough Head. (Though I would not go so far as to suggest using one sculpt for both the earlier Roebuck and later Portland classes...)

For now, maybe one of the Wave 2 Swans could stand in as Mutine, though the small-fry basically sat the battle out. (With good reason... one of the French frigates, IIRC Serieuse, decided she wanted to Play With The Big Kids, flipped a broadside at a 74 and got one in return With The Expected Results.)

7eat51
01-02-2014, 22:43
Thanks, DB.

It might not be a bad idea to make some blank, laminated ship logs so one could put in numbers as desired to represent ships or classes of ships not offered yet.

Diamondback
01-02-2014, 22:50
I've actually thought about suggesting we come up with our own Anchorage-sanctioned deck of logs for unreleased sisters and near-sisters from released classes... preferably with painting notes to match.

It is worth noting that at the time of her kB! Ocean had been up-gunned to a 124, and over her career Victory bounced from a low of 98 to a high of 104 or 110... (She was downgraded to a 98 Second Rate about the same time as her sisters the 1810 Boynes were built, then up-gunned to a 104 and restored to First Rate alongside them.) Also, I seem to recall that at at least one point, 1777 Concorde herself was up-gunned all the way into a 40 with no hull changes...

7eat51
01-02-2014, 23:03
I've actually thought about suggesting we come up with our own Anchorage-sanctioned deck of logs for unreleased sisters and near-sisters from released classes... preferably with painting notes to match.

Great idea. :thumbsup:

I wonder if we'll see Shapeways in the future.

Gunner
01-03-2014, 01:20
While I'm not a fan of Shapeways WGF. I'd like to see them come out with ships. I.E. Russians, Turks etc. so I could:moneygone:.

David Manley
01-03-2014, 05:44
Would be an impressive gaming event for any convention; Origins, GenCon, Rock Con, NavCon, etc.?

The Nile makes an excellent display game. We ran a 200th anniversary demo game at the Naval Wargames Society using FLoB, and then used it as the society's demo and parti game for the next year (the Napoleonic fair in London and a number of shows in the South of the UK). It was very popular, and looked great with the shoreline, the headland and the old castle, and odd (oversized) palm trees and terrain bits and pieces to give the impression of the Egyptian shore. I think I still have the terrain bits stored away in the barn somewhere.

David Manley
01-03-2014, 05:55
Great idea. :thumbsup:

I wonder if we'll see Shapeways in the future.

Its more than likely. That said I'm not sure the technology is up to masts and sails yet. But no matter, as this is an issue that the 1/1200 community has dealt with. There are a number of 1/1200 age of sal and age of transition models out there where the modeller has recreated the hull only, leaving the buyer to source their own masts and saisl. And since Rod Langton sells mast and sail packs thats problem solved. Now the astute amongst you will point out "they are different scales", but if you just used the next larger mast and sail set for your 1/1000 model the results will be fine. For example, his set for 64s should be OK for large frigates, his 74 for 64s and 50s, and his 3 decker sets for 74s. Bigger ships obviously a problem, but thats probably a small proportion of what people will want to buy anyway.

I'd recommend FUD for these models. Whilst WSF works OK for aircraft with suitable sealing I think the detail you'd be getting into a decent 1/1000 ship wouldn't cope with it. The best 1/1200 and 1/600 ship models I've seen on Shapeways so far have been in FUD.

csadn
01-03-2014, 17:59
That's a lot of 74's.

The 74 was the "generic SoL" for the period. Bigger ships were too expensive (in money, time, and resources) to build and maintain easily; smaller ships couldn't survive in the line as well; the 74 struck the necessary balance. (no, there was never a 74 named "Goldilocks", so.... >:) ). In Eastern climes, where water was shallower and wind flukier, smaller SoLs (64s and even the odd 50) survived well into the 1800s; but even those fleets succumbed to "keeping up with the Joneses", and the small SoL was replaced by the "heavy frigate" (just in time for the steam age, and breechloading cannon, to knock the whole rating system for a loop :) ).

Berthier
01-03-2014, 18:31
They got good service out of the 74's, note that the youngest listed by DB was 15yo at the time of the battle and the oldest was nearly 50yo. Didnt the Med warrant "new" ships?

Diamondback
01-03-2014, 20:40
Also, those dates are design dates, not vintage of any ship in the lot except Diane--various versions in the Slade 74 family were under construction from 1760 virtually right to the end of the 74 in Royal Navy new acquisitions...

csadn
01-04-2014, 18:46
They got good service out of the 74's, note that the youngest listed by DB was 15yo at the time of the battle and the oldest was nearly 50yo. Didnt the Med warrant "new" ships?

"New" wasn't the problem -- the problem is Wind, and Water; more specifically, the flukiness of the former and the shallowness of the latter.

The further east one travels in the Med, the more erratic the wind becomes -- note the continuing prevalence of oared ships in Eastern European/Asian waters right up to the steam era. I don't know why it works that way; I suspect it's something to do with the land masses being in the way of the wind coming off the Atlantic. But the fact is: Wind isn't always reliable, esp. in the Med, and particularly in the eastern Med. To that end, one needs smaller ships, so one needs less wind to propel same.

Water depth throughout the Med, esp. in harbors and other points close to shore, is also problematic -- note what happened to _Culloden_ at the Nile, or USS _Philadelphia_. Smaller ships usually meant shallower drafts, and less likelihood of getting hung up on a sandbar or reef.

At any rate, that's what I picked up from writings on the topic.

DeRuyter
01-07-2014, 11:37
For now, maybe one of the Wave 2 Swans could stand in as Mutine, though the small-fry basically sat the battle out. (With good reason... one of the French frigates, IIRC Serieuse, decided she wanted to Play With The Big Kids, flipped a broadside at a 74 and got one in return With The Expected Results.)

I would guess that many rules/scenarios for the Nile just leave the smaller ships out altogether. Although in a campaign setting a frigate could be used to tow a disabled SoL (If I recall correctly this was attempted at the Nile?). Although it may interesting to see how SoG would handle what happened to Serieuse!

David Manley
01-07-2014, 13:20
Ive tried it with and without frigates. TBH they didn't add much when we did use them, other than getting in the way

Nightmoss
01-28-2014, 21:04
DB, with the announcement of Wave 2 now out there how does it effect your chart above and the option of having a Battle of the Nile campaign/scenario?

Diamondback
01-29-2014, 17:20
Jim, it's already baked in :)--we knew the sculpts long ago, and the only thing I was holding back was that L'Orient was one of the specific ships selected for Wave 2.

Nightmoss
01-29-2014, 20:01
Jim, it's already baked in :)--we knew the sculpts long ago, and the only thing I was holding back was that L'Orient was one of the specific ships selected for Wave 2.

Excellent! Would be great to see how that would look on a large table at Origins or GenCon!

AdamW
01-31-2014, 08:58
I may steal this for Geekway... This is too tempting to do.

Nightmoss
01-31-2014, 09:27
I may steal this for Geekway... This is too tempting to do.

If you do be sure someone takes lots and lots of photos. The AAR is also requested. As far as I know, no one has attempted a SoG 'campaign' yet? :salute:

fredmiracle
01-31-2014, 09:35
As far as I know, no one has attempted a SoG 'campaign' yet? :salute:

My hunch is that we will try to do a mini campaign in April. The current thinking is using something like the To Glory We Steer campaign setting in the Carribbean, but with only small fleets, maybe 3-4 SOLs and 4-6 frigates on each side. Assuming those forces are split up into various detachments, each of the individual battles should (hopefully) be manageable in size. We'll see how it goes.

Nightmoss
01-31-2014, 13:13
My hunch is that we will try to do a mini campaign in April. The current thinking is using something like the To Glory We Steer campaign setting in the Carribbean, but with only small fleets, maybe 3-4 SOLs and 4-6 frigates on each side. Assuming those forces are split up into various detachments, each of the individual battles should (hopefully) be manageable in size. We'll see how it goes.

Cool! I will say the same thing to you as I did to Adam; lots of photos and a nice AAR would be most excellent! :happy:

AdamW
01-31-2014, 13:19
Cool! I will say the same thing to you as I did to Adam; lots of photos and a nice AAR would be most excellent! :happy:

This thread makes the assumption that 1) I have enough ships to do this, 2) that i have the historical knowledge to make it somewhat accurate, and 3) that I'm going to remember to attend, arrive, set up, and run the event. xD

Then again, i'm sure there's some folks that are more than happy to help.