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Nightmoss
09-25-2013, 12:01
I'm currently working on the GHQ version of the HMS Victory. It's ready for the standing rigging prior to application of Langton Full Complement brass sails set. I've wanted to try using brass sails since I first read about them in the Langton book, but I've stayed away from that as I've also read that they can be especially challenging.

So, I'm seeking advice from anyone who's used these previously. I just read Rory's comments on the "Jane Powell" and I do not think these brass sails can take running rigging without bending sails and mast completely out of line?

Thanks!

DeRuyter
09-25-2013, 13:19
Nice paint work!

I have stayed away from the brass sails myself! I do think that there are photos of ships with running rigging and brass sails on Langton's web site (possibly the Anglo-Dutch ships since they came with brass sails).

Comte de Brueys
09-25-2013, 13:51
Nice project.

Brass sails means: all sails are set and full in the wind?

Devsdoc
09-25-2013, 15:27
Hi Jim,
I'm a wargamer that models, not a modeller that wargames. I would not use brass sails. The standing rigging helps the masts stand so can be tight. As does rat-lines. The running rigging moves the sails, so are only for show for us. I would not do runs like I do, but one sail at a time as Langton said to do. That way you do not pull or can control the pull. like armour it is not the thickness of the metal, but the bend and shape of the armour that makes it strong. I would think bending the sail would make it stronger.
Vol is your man, talk to him. Good luck
Be safe
Rory

P.S. 22.30 U.K. time. Just looked at Langton site. His brass sails are rigged with running rigging on the photo's

Nightmoss
09-25-2013, 21:26
Nice project.

Brass sails means: all sails are set and full in the wind?

The brass sail set I got from Langton includes a full sails set, yes. It also includes studding sails and stay sails in addition the the white metal masts and bowsprit.


Hi Jim,
I'm a wargamer that models, not a modeller that wargames. I would not use brass sails. The standing rigging helps the masts stand so can be tight. As does rat-lines. The running rigging moves the sails, so are only for show for us. I would not do runs like I do, but one sail at a time as Langton said to do. That way you do not pull or can control the pull. like armour it is not the thickness of the metal, but the bend and shape of the armour that makes it strong. I would think bending the sail would make it stronger.
Vol is your man, talk to him. Good luck
Be safe
Rory

P.S. 22.30 U.K. time. Just looked at Langton site. His brass sails are rigged with running rigging on the photo's

Thanks Rory. I'll see what Vol has to say when he pops in. The very brief instructions included with the sail set indicates you should do all the standing rigging first, then the sails and then the ratlines. Nothing mentioned specifically about the running rigging, which I still would guess comes last? I'll head back to Langton's website to see if I can get any more information, or at least visualize the running rigging aspects from their photos. This could be interesting.

Volunteer
09-26-2013, 01:38
Hello Jim, sorry I'm late.
For once I do not agree with Rory, an extremely rare occurrence, so pay attention. Brass sails are tougher than they look. Once you get the hang of them they are as easy, and in some ways easier than white metal. And they are plenty strong enough to game with. Rod's are uniquely designed to use parts of the sprue to attach the sail to the mast and to other sails and spars, so read the directions carefully and be very careful not to cut beneficial parts of the sprue when cutting out the sails.

Talk to James White about gaming with brass sails. That is all he builds and plays with.

If you go to my site you will notice that I make my own brass sails. They aren't photo etched so I add the detail with mesh and thread to each sail. This detail provides the method to strongly attach the sail to a spar and the spar to the mast. So I think mine are just as strong as the photo etched or white metal sail sets.

A full sail complement crisply detailed GHQ Victory will certainly be something I want to see. Please post the photos on your progress like you have for your Langton Spaniards.

Regards,
Vol

7eat51
09-26-2013, 05:24
Beautifully painted, Jim. I look forward to seeing her completed.

Nightmoss
09-26-2013, 10:39
Hello Jim, sorry I'm late.
For once I do not agree with Rory, a very rare occurance, so pay attention. Brass sails are tougher than they look. Once you get the hang of them they are as easy, and in some ways easier than white metal. And they are plenty strong enough to game with. Rod's are uniquely designed to use parts of the sprue to attach the sail to the mast and to other sails and spars, so read the directions carefully and be very careful not to cut beneficial parts of the sprue when cutting out the sails.

Talk to James White about gaming with brass sails. That is all he builds and plays with.

If you go to my site you will notice that I make my own brass sails. They aren't photo etched so I add the detail with mesh and thread to each sail. This detail provides the method to strongly attach the sail to a spar and the spar to the mast. So I think mine are just as strong as the photo etched or white metal sail sets.

A full sail complement crisply detailed GHQ Victory will certainly be something I want to see. Please post the photos on your progress like you have for your Langton Spaniards.

Regards,
Vol

Thanks much, Vol. I'm on my way to check out your blog so I get a better idea of what I need to do. From what I have in hand I gather that the yards are part of the sails? I did note the warning about the mizzen yard being easily missed and discarded if you don't read and heed the directions.

I may try to get one or two sails placed today and then take a photo to post here to see if I'm doing it correctly. Thanks again for the input.

Devsdoc
09-26-2013, 14:06
Jim,
See! Vol's the man.:salute:
Good luck & be safe
Rory

Nightmoss
09-26-2013, 19:36
Well, I may be doing this wrong, but so far it looks OK? I don't think you can do all the standing rigging as listed in the Langton book before you start placing some of the sails. For example the lines from the bowsprit to the main mast have to go up after the sail, and the same for the bowsprit yard. That sail set needs to be in place before you start wrapping thread, etc. Two photos to show progress. Vol, if you see something wrong, let me know? Thanks.

Devsdoc
09-26-2013, 19:38
Jim
I see something wrong! Its to good.
Be safe
Rory

Volunteer
09-26-2013, 22:11
Jim,
I would push the bottom of the sail out away from the mast. With the sprue "clamps" that were verticle center on the spar to hold it to the mast, this should be doable. That will show the wind better. Other than that it looks right to me. Keep up the photos Jim. I can't wait to see the stay and studing sails.
Regards,
Vol

Nightmoss
09-27-2013, 01:24
Jim,
I would push the bottom of the sail out away from the mast. With the sprue "clamps" that were verticle center on the spar to hold it to the mast, this should be doable. That will show the wind better. Other than that it looks right to me. Keep up the photos Jim. I can't wait to see the stay and studing sails.
Regards,
Vol

I'll try to add more billow to the sail. There's a tab instead of clamps on that particular sail so I'll take it slowly. So far the brass hasn't been a problem if I don't rush the molding. Thanks Vol.

Nightmoss
09-27-2013, 01:29
Jim
I see something wrong! Its to good.
Be safe
Rory

Rory, you had me there at first. Made me smile. :minis:

Nightmoss
10-03-2013, 18:14
Here's a brief photo update on the brass sails application. First off, I've learned a lot and next time I'll know what to do and what not to do. Also, I got some good advice from Vol, which would have made things much easier if I'd not already moved forward on putting the sails up.

So, lessons learned, don't put any of the sails on until after all the stay sails are in place. Don't glue the stay sails to the masts unless there are stability issues. Don't push any of the brass sails against the masts with too much force or all the standing rigging will go loose, bend masts, etc. Stay sails are still easier to put up than ratlines. Finally, bending the sails using pencils, pens and paint jars has worked really well, so I have no complaints there, and the ship becomes much more stable the more brass sails are attached to other sails.

Not sure if I'll do extensive running rigging as spaces are going to be very cramped, but we'll see when I get there.

Devsdoc
10-03-2013, 19:22
Nicely done Jim.
You can see that staysails should have the bottom bits done with running rigging. I would do the running rigging. O.K I have done it, but they are old Langton metal sails and the painting is no way as good as yours. But it shows it can be done and is space to do it. The running rigging with staysails and your painting, would be one of the best model ships around. Go for it.

7061

7062

Be safe
Rory

Nightmoss
10-03-2013, 20:42
Thanks Rory. Your pictures help and it looks like all stay sails connect to the masts. Is that correct? I'm also adding studding sails, exactly as Langton's diagrams show. Will the running rigging extend out the yards to those sails as well? From James' blog/gallery it would appear so?

http://jwhitegallery.blogspot.com/2012/06/14-gun-cutter-langton-11200.html

Devsdoc
10-03-2013, 21:38
Thanks Rory. Your pictures help and it looks like all stay sails connect to the masts. Is that correct? I'm also adding studding sails, exactly as Langton's diagrams show. Will the running rigging extend out the yards to those sails as well? From James' blog/gallery it would appear so?

http://jwhitegallery.blogspot.com/2012/06/14-gun-cutter-langton-11200.html

Hi Jim,
Yes to all. I have not done studding sails as they come over the bases. I think for gaming that is a little too much for me, unless you add a bigger base for safety. If I understand it right. The line from the yard-arm just moves out. But you would add a new line to the bottom of the bottom studding sail. So one line at the top of the studding yard-arm, but 1 line at the bottoms of the course sails and 1 line at the bottom of the studding sails too. I would run them both back to the same point on the Bulwarks. Main to mizzen shrouds and fore to the main shrouds. Hope this helps.
Good luck
Rory

Devsdoc
10-03-2013, 21:55
Jim,
If you do the running rigging don't forget the Victory is BRITISH, so apart from the mizzen crossjack all the running rigging goes back to the top end of the spanker boom as in my photos and not forward to the main mast as you do with the Spanish.
Be safe
Rory

Nightmoss
10-03-2013, 22:37
Thanks for the information, Rory. I'll follow British mizzen rigging and hopefully get all the studding running rigging done correctly. :question:

Comte de Brueys
10-04-2013, 01:31
Nice progress, Jim.

Moideeb
10-04-2013, 16:06
Jim,

Its looking really good. You have some great advice about rigging too. As always amazing painting skills!

Chris

Moideeb
10-04-2013, 16:11
Jim,
If you do the running rigging don't forget the Victory is BRITISH, so apart from the mizzen crossjack all the running rigging goes back to the top end of the spanker boom as in my photos and not forward to the main mast as you do with the Spanish.
Be safe
Rory

I never realised the spanish rigged their ships this way. I always assumed a square rigged ship would be rigged a single way. I only really know the British way of rigging. Were other navies such as the american and french rigged differently as well?

Nightmoss
10-04-2013, 16:47
I never realised the spanish rigged their ships this way. I always assumed a square rigged ship would be rigged a single way. I only really know the British way of rigging. Were other navies such as the american and french rigged differently as well?

Somewhere on another thread I confirmed with Rod Langton that US ships are rigged like the British. The French, Spanish, Russian's, etc., are considered the "rest of the world". I didn't ask him if there were any other countries that also rigged as the British, but I suspect not? And thanks for the compliments. All sails are up and I've started on the running rigging. I can see why Rory does not use studding sails for ships he uses for gaming. They definitely extend beyond the base.

Devsdoc
10-04-2013, 18:37
Jim,
I'm so sorry, I forgot you did the "Constitution" and talked about British rigging on U.S. ships before. :embarass:
Sorry and be safe
Rory

Nightmoss
10-04-2013, 21:59
Jim,
I'm so sorry, I forgot you did the "Constitution" and talked about British rigging on U.S. ships before. :embarass:
Sorry and be safe
Rory

Not a problem, Rory. Of course now that Chris asked it I'm wondering if anyone besides the US and Britain used the British mizzen rigging standard? Maybe I should ask Rod Langton that? :hmmm:

Volunteer
10-05-2013, 00:37
Hello Jim,
Sorry I'm late looking. The ship is turning out very nice indeed. If Rory says to glue the stay sails to the mast then that is the way to go. I'm sorry I steered you wrong there. As I told you, I haven't built a full sail ship yet. I suppose I should, can't have all my ships at quarters. Keep the photos coming. And again, excellent paint job!

Regards,
Vol

Nightmoss
10-05-2013, 17:28
Hello Jim,
Sorry I'm late looking. The ship is turning out very nice indeed. If Rory says to glue the stay sails to the mast then that is the way to go. I'm sorry I steered you wrong there. As I told you, I haven't built a full sail ship yet. I suppose I should, can't have all my ships at quarters. Keep the photos coming. And again, excellent paint job!

Regards,
Vol

Thanks Vol. I can't recall if Rory suggested gluing the stay sails to the masts or not? I don't think he did, but he did push me to do all the running rigging on the stay sails. And so I did. . .

The Victory is done for now; except for all the painting touch up work I have to do on the yards, masts and sails. I may try to clip a little more of the stay sail brass tabs off, but that might be courting disaster? Base. label and flags to follow. Thanks for the tips, advice and support.

Devsdoc
10-05-2013, 22:29
Jim,
If you do not like this ship! :smack: You should be :singin: from the yardarms. She is just so GOOD. I am just sitting here and looking over again and again at this master class of 1-1200 model making. I'm so happy for you. :clap: I wish I had your skills :envy: :salute:
Be safe
Rory
P.S The old Langton masts had the staysails moulded to the fore and main masts

Nightmoss
10-05-2013, 23:55
Jim,
If you do not like this ship! :smack: You should be :singin: from the yardarms. She is just so GOOD. I am just sitting here and looking over again and again at this master class of 1-1200 model making. I'm so happy for you. :clap: I wish I had your skills :envy: :salute:
Be safe
Rory
P.S The old Langton masts had the staysails moulded to the fore and main masts

Thanks so much, Rory. Compliments really appreciated. Now I have to get her on that base, asap.

Wow, did Langton really mould the stay sails to the mast? I could see where that might make it easier, and then again, maybe not?

Volunteer
10-06-2013, 02:27
Wow Jim, she truly is beautiful! Great job. My GHQ Victory isn't near a
s nice. I wish I knew how you are able to paint such perfect lines on the hull? I am envious.
Regards,
Vol

7eat51
10-06-2013, 08:28
Jim, she is lovely. Really outstanding work. :hatsoff:

Nightmoss
10-06-2013, 10:53
Wow Jim, she truly is beautiful! Great job. My GHQ Victory isn't near a
s nice. I wish I knew how you are able to paint such perfect lines on the hull? I am envious.
Regards,
Vol


Jim, she is lovely. Really outstanding work. :hatsoff:

Thank you both. It was a lot of rigging and I had to take several breaks in between, as my eyes were crossing.

Vol, I don't try to paint straight lines on the ship. If and whenever there's some raised edge I paint from the side with a brush that has just enough paint to spread out without going over the edge. So, the yellow ocher goes down first and then then the black. Same for the gun ports, just slowly adding the paint close to the edges without going over. The brush isn't at 90 degrees to the hull; more like 180 degrees. Does that make sense?

The Royal Hajj
10-07-2013, 07:20
Very nicely done Jim!

Volunteer
10-07-2013, 19:20
Thank you both. It was a lot of rigging and I had to take several breaks in between, as my eyes were crossing.

Vol, I don't try to paint straight lines on the ship. If and whenever there's some raised edge I paint from the side with a brush that has just enough paint to spread out without going over the edge. So, the yellow ocher goes down first and then then the black. Same for the gun ports, just slowly adding the paint close to the edges without going over. The brush isn't at 90 degrees to the hull; more like 180 degrees. Does that make sense?

Exactly what I do and yours looks better IMO! My comment stands.
Regards,
Vol

Nightmoss
10-10-2013, 16:19
HMS Victory is pretty much completed. I have to wait on painting the Vallejo water effects, which I've applied for the first time, but that's primarily part of the final touch up painting I do after I take some pictures. These final photos help me spot where I need to add paint, remove dust, etc.

While not as spectacular as Chris' 1/300 HMS Victory, it is done well before Trafalgar Day. :happy:

Moideeb
10-10-2013, 16:46
Wow, your attention to detail is truly spectacular. When i look at my work it shows all the blemishes when its close up. These ships are 1:1200 though and look perfect!

Well done on getting it done before trafalgar day, though if your going for the fleets, you have 31 more British ships to make (24 ships of the line, 4 Frigates and smaller craft), 23 French and 14 more Spanish, using your Santissima Trinidad (33 ships of the line, 7 Frigates) and 11 days left to finish.

Cue the music :cry: :surrender: :shock:

Nightmoss
10-10-2013, 17:28
Wow, your attention to detail is truly spectacular. When i look at my work it shows all the blemishes when its close up. These ships are 1:1200 though and look perfect!

Well done on getting it done before trafalgar day, though if your going for the fleets, you have 31 more British ships to make (24 ships of the line, 4 Frigates and smaller craft), 23 French and 14 more Spanish, using your Santissima Trinidad (33 ships of the line, 7 Frigates) and 11 days left to finish.

Cue the music :cry: :surrender: :shock:

Isn't going to happen! :dazed:

I'll have to plan that for next year though. With the SoG ships to assist I might just be able to do it? :minis:

7eat51
10-10-2013, 18:00
Extremely impressive, Jim. The sails look great. :hatsoff:

Devsdoc
10-10-2013, 19:06
Jim.
All I can say is NICE :salute:
Be safe
Rory

Comte de Brueys
10-10-2013, 19:58
Fantastic final product, Jim. :eek:

Impressive, most impressive. :salute:

Gunner
10-10-2013, 20:06
Well Jim, your ship cost me a keyboard:moneygone:. All my drooling shorted it out.

Nightmoss
10-10-2013, 21:17
Thanks all for the very kind words! Sorry, Ed, about your keyboard?!?

The Santisima Trinidad had been my favorite build to date, but I'm thinking the Victory has probably pushed her aside. Not sure if it's the full sails, the color scheme or the great GHQ hull detailing, but she's sharp looking on the water.

Berthier
10-11-2013, 04:32
Great weathering on the sails, beautiful sea base, beautiful ship...nothing more to be said!!

Nightmoss
10-13-2013, 13:14
Speaking of brass sails look what showed up in my mailbox (thanks to Rob at Waterloo Minis being able to special order from Rod Langton). While I did get the hull and base primed I'm doubtful I'll get to the rest of the USS Wasp until next year. It's already too cool outside for painting and I don't have facilities in house to safely spray paint. I need more practice before I move on to 1/300. So, back to the 1/1200's and most likely a French 100. Cheers!

Gunner
10-13-2013, 13:24
HMS Victory is pretty much completed. I have to wait on painting the Vallejo water effects, which I've applied for the first time, but that's primarily part of the final touch up painting I do after I take some pictures. These final photos help me spot where I need to add paint, remove dust, etc.

While not as spectacular as Chris' 1/300 HMS Victory, it is done well before Trafalgar Day. :happy:

Just out of curiosity, if you ever sold it, what would you ask?

Moideeb
10-13-2013, 14:25
Speaking of brass sails look what showed up in my mailbox (thanks to Rob at Waterloo Minis being able to special order from Rod Langton). While I did get the hull and base primed I'm doubtful I'll get to the rest of the USS Wasp until next year. It's already too cool outside for painting and I don't have facilities in house to safely spray paint. I need more practice before I move on to 1/300. So, back to the 1/1200's and most likely a French 100. Cheers!

Now that ship looks familiar! You don't need any practice before moving on to this scale. your 1:200 are already virtually museum quality. I can't believe you would blink an eyelid making these to any less of a standard. Be careful though, i only ever intended to make the wasp. Then i said i would never make another after the juno...

Volunteer
10-13-2013, 16:31
I am so envious!:envy::cry:

Devsdoc
10-13-2013, 17:35
I am so envious!:envy::cry:

Dark side Vol, Dark side

Nightmoss
10-13-2013, 18:35
Just out of curiosity, if you ever sold it, what would you ask?

I have no idea, Ed. I've never sold any models so I don't have any reference to go by?


Now that ship looks familiar! You don't need any practice before moving on to this scale. your 1:200 are already virtually museum quality. I can't believe you would blink an eyelid making these to any less of a standard. Be careful though, i only ever intended to make the wasp. Then i said i would never make another after the juno...

I held off on this for the exact reason you've brought up, Chris. I could make more than a few 1/1200 ships for the cost and space this model will take up.


I am so envious!:envy::cry:

Don't be, Vol. How many 1/1200 ships do you have waiting to be built?


Dark side Vol, Dark side

Good one, Rory. Darth Vader made me do it.