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View Full Version : Generic rules discussion thread, not a question thread



Andy Blozinski
09-18-2013, 21:10
Since we wonderfully get to check out the rules ahead of time, we're all going to be full of opinions and want to impress the whole world with our incise observations and commentary.

Here's my first one:
Page 15, Ammunition: After you've fired, you flip the counter over from face down to face up. Why not just remove the counter? I would think that would be more clear in the confusion of many players, some of them maybe first timers at a convention. You flip it over long enough to fire, then put it to the side.

The Royal Hajj
09-19-2013, 07:51
Since the rules are released only to KS backers at this point, we need to refrain from quoting them directly or posting too much about them here.

But a little discussion on some points is not out of line...

If you read that section as part of the entire firing sequence, you will see that they are using the flipping of the token as a control device. By flipping it and leaving it in place, the player has to physically do something in the reloading phase of the game, making it easier to keep track of when a gun has been fired, can be reloaded, and can be fired again.

Make more sense now?

DeRuyter
09-19-2013, 10:35
Ok here is an issue for discussion. The Aim High optional rule only applies when firing ball or double shot. On it's face the rule overlooks chain shot, which is what you want to use when aiming at the rigging of course. Perhaps the 'C' damage counters already take the chain effects into account, so you don't need a special aiming high damage rule for that ammunition?

Just food for thought without looking at the damage counters or having played any demos.

Eric

David Manley
09-19-2013, 11:07
Use of chain shot assumes that you are shooting high. It isn't effective if fired into the hull

The Royal Hajj
09-19-2013, 11:19
David has it, but perhaps some more info behind the Aim High rule will help. As it is, chain shot is very short range. The Aim High rule allows you to still target the rigging and sails, at a greater distance but less effective if using chain shot up close. Make more sense now?

The Barrelman
09-19-2013, 12:44
David has it, but perhaps some more info behind the Aim High rule will help. As it is, chain shot is very short range. The Aim High rule allows you to still target the rigging and sails, at a greater distance but less effective if using chain shot up close. Make more sense now?

I read this as "The Aim High rule allows you to target the rigging and sails at a greater distance. But, it is less effective then using chain shot up close." Correct?

Sorry for this. The comma seems misplaced. Kinda like the difference between...

Stop clubbing baby seals. (and)
Stop clubbing, baby seals.

6958

The Royal Hajj
09-19-2013, 12:55
I read this as "The Aim High rule allows you to target the rigging and sails at a greater distance. But, it is less effective then using chain shot up close." Correct?


That is correct and worded better than my reply above.

DeRuyter
09-19-2013, 13:04
Makes sense and thanks for the replies :beer:

Andy Blozinski
09-19-2013, 19:26
The difference between Basic and Standard rules seems pretty small to me. The difference between Standard and Advanced is pretty big. For my typical convention events (as opposed to the whacky charity fund raiser one), I'm thinking run one scenario in the first few hours of the game slot as the Standard rules, then run a second game with the Advanced rules and also throw in the Captain/Crew deck and maybe a few select Optional rules.

Andy Blozinski
09-19-2013, 22:39
The rulebook has a counter list and quantity. The game comes with enough counters to run (4) ships. I ordered a second counter set, so (8) ships for me. Wish I'd ordered another set. Oh well.

The Royal Hajj
09-19-2013, 22:51
I'm pretty sure you can still log in and order more stuff.

The Royal Hajj
09-20-2013, 17:20
The rulebook has a counter list and quantity. The game comes with enough counters to run (4) ships. I ordered a second counter set, so (8) ships for me. Wish I'd ordered another set. Oh well.

Ares also just confirmed that counters will be available as an accessory. Watch for it on the AA site this weekend or Monday.

Wear Ship Dave
09-20-2013, 17:49
Ares also just confirmed that counters will be available as an accessory. Watch for it on the AA site this weekend or Monday.

My apologies if this already known... But will they be making Maneuver Decks available for sale, beyond what comes with minis?

I would rather buy them and support the game then have to make them to use with ships that I build myself.

Andy Blozinski
09-20-2013, 18:47
Ares also just confirmed that counters will be available as an accessory. Watch for it on the AA site this weekend or Monday.

This is good news, although I do find it interesting that Alcoholics Anonymous apparently has a fund raiser by selling sailing game accessories.

David Manley
09-21-2013, 01:03
As one of the few sets of rules out there with specific coverage of the consumption of alcoholic beverages in action, and knowing how some gamers like to get "in character", that could be appropriate!

The Royal Hajj
09-21-2013, 08:08
My apologies if this already known... But will they be making Maneuver Decks available for sale, beyond what comes with minis?

I would rather buy them and support the game then have to make them to use with ships that I build myself.

Ares will never sell maneuver decks separately in any of their game systems.

David Manley
09-21-2013, 08:35
Expect some enterprising chaps to either scan the official decks or to recreate them and post them here. You can get all of the aircraft decks on the Aerodrome I think. Then print on card or laminate and cut out.

The Royal Hajj
09-21-2013, 10:08
Expect some enterprising chaps to either scan the official decks or to recreate them and post them here. You can get all of the aircraft decks on the Aerodrome I think. Then print on card or laminate and cut out.

Yes, they can scan/copy them... but they will not be posted on this site. Ares and I have already discussed a way forward on copyrighted material. They still support player made aids, but we are not supporting player made "replacement" components. Wings of War was in a different boat, many of the game components were not commercially available for a stretch of time and the company (Nexus) actually went out of business.

David Manley
09-21-2013, 10:28
Will the aircraft manoeuvre decks be removed from the Aerodrome?

The Royal Hajj
09-21-2013, 10:53
Will the aircraft manoeuvre decks be removed from the Aerodrome?

From Ares point of view, no. From mine, I'm not sure yet to be honest. I will most likely remove the ones that are in print or have been reprinted by Ares. Any from the Nexus days that Ares has not got around to reprinting yet will most likely stay.

Devsdoc
09-21-2013, 13:48
My apologies if this already known... But will they be making Maneuver Decks available for sale, beyond what comes with minis?

I would rather buy them and support the game then have to make them to use with ships that I build myself.


Ares will never sell maneuver decks separately in any of their game systems.


Expect some enterprising chaps to either scan the official decks or to recreate them and post them here. You can get all of the aircraft decks on the Aerodrome I think. Then print on card or laminate and cut out.


Yes, they can scan/copy them... but they will not be posted on this site. Ares and I have already discussed a way forward on copyrighted material. They still support player made aids, but we are not supporting player made "replacement" components. Wings of War was in a different boat, many of the game components were not commercially available for a stretch of time and the company (Nexus) actually went out of business.

Dave,
This is the big point of the whole thing for me. No ships, no game. You are running into a brick wall on this point. We that play and make Action under sail period ship. Must put our ships away, and only play with Ares ships or scan/copy parts. This I will not do. They see SOG as a board game with pretty!? pieces. Not a set of wargame rules.:takecover: :surrender:
Be safe
Rory

The Royal Hajj
09-21-2013, 14:43
They see SOG as a board game with pretty!? pieces. Not a set of wargame rules.:takecover: :surrender:


And that is the sum of it Rory, they are a family game company, not a miniatures company or publishing company. My advice to you if you really want to use this game system with your ships, buy the miniatures, keep everything but the ship miniatures. Those I'm sure you would be able to sell here on this site for anyone wanting to do repaints are use them to build hulks. Or better yet, take your great ship building skills, make the hulks out of the minis and sell them here on the site. You would end up making money that way I'm sure!

David Manley
09-21-2013, 15:28
There is a curious schizophrenia in the approach to "third party" models here. For SGN the approach seems to be to limit as far as possible the use of third party models. Yet for WGF we see decks available here for download, flight stand pegs sold by Ares and bases available through the Aerodrome here, all aimed squarely at allowing those with models from other suppliers to be used (and other components as well - WGF damage decks for instance). I can kind of understand why Ares don't sell manoeuvre decks separately, but I can also see a very big financial attraction for doing so. As far as SGN is concerned TBH I don't see the current community of 1/1200 naval gamers being any kind of target market at present. They have favourite sets already and aren't going to buy into a game, no matter how good it is, where they have to buy a ship at 15+ just to get a deck of cards. And I see the predominant purchasers of SGN being players with no desire to build models of their own (pre-paints is the USP, after all) - OK, as with the Aerodrome we see a cadre of modellers who create examples of modelling loveliness, but in my experience the vast majority of players only use official models. But as we see there are modellers out there and so there is some demand for manoeuvre decks and components (obviously, else keith wouldn't make his flight stands). Maybe its just the economics of facilitating the sales of components that mitigates against it, but if not i don't really see a reason not to. I honestly don't think there is any real revenue risk from doing so. And (in the case of WGF at least) it would help some of my chums who are missing a few cards from their existing decks.

7eat51
09-21-2013, 15:56
I think you raise an interesting point, David. There does seem to be a different spirit here concerning Ares ships versus models compared to the 'Drome. I wonder if Age-of-Sail players are a different breed from WWI aviation players. I am still a relative newbie, so I know I am just conjecturing. It seems to me that folks have been at AoS mini playing for quite sometime, and I imagine most, if not all, of the ships have been models. With that type of personal investment in building, and with the different scale, I think you are correct in that selling the gaming components would probably not cannibalize mini sales to the degree anticipated, because many of those folks probably won't buy the minis to begin with. Folks like me are extremely thankful for the Ares minis in both games. We will dabble in modeling, but will still purchase each series that Ares produces.

Keith, your reply to Rory intrigues me. How would you differentiate between WoG or SoG and associated wargames? It seems to me that the folks at Ares have very good reasons for creating the maneuver decks as they do, and similarly with the probability spreads on damage decks and plane stats. I see WoG and SoG as wargames with streamlined mechanics that are family friendly. I imagine these games can be played like Pandemic or Settlers of Catan, in that someone could basically play a tactical game with a WWI or AoS theme, but these games seem much deeper than that to me. I am a bit confused.

Berthier
09-21-2013, 20:40
I may have missed it in my reading of the rules but is there any penalty for simultaneous firing of both of a ships broadsides on the same turn? My thinking here is that gun decks were not sufficiently manned to load and fire both broadsides at the same speed as a single broadside. Although it would take two actions to reload both sides, should there be firing penalty to one of the broadsides (owners choice)if fired simultaneously?

Devsdoc
09-21-2013, 21:57
Daniel,
Can you load both sides in one go? I think SOG have crew action points So you maybe limited to what actions you can do. e.g. Load one board side and pump or load 2 board sides and sink etc. I maybe wrong here. It not the firing its the loading that is slowed down.
Be safe
Rory

Andy Blozinski
09-22-2013, 10:12
If you're playing the Basic/Standard version of the game that has no crew action management, there's no problem firing and loading both sides. If you're playing the advanced game where you have limited crew and must manage them, there most certainly can be a problem.

The Barrelman
09-22-2013, 22:02
What's the MSRP going to be for the accessory pack? Might be worth altering my preorder thing to add one.

:question:

The Barrelman
09-22-2013, 22:03
Oh... and on topic.

I do like the inclusion of solitaire rules from day one. Will be nice to have it and not need to search the internet for player made rules like Wings.