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Devsdoc
09-14-2013, 14:14
It is done. I have finished my Russian fleet. I hope you like them.

6793

6794

6795

6796

6797

6798

6799

6800

6801

6802

6803

Be safe
Rory

Nightmoss
09-14-2013, 17:24
A truly impressive fleet, Rory! Thanks for sharing the photos. The wreck turned out really well!

Which engagements are you going to be recreating with this fleet? Be sure to post those photos whenever those battles take place.

Volunteer
09-14-2013, 17:54
Very nice Rory. Much bigger photos than in your e-mail. The wreck looks good. I like your Toulon tower on the shore too. Now if I can just get my Dutch fleet finished........

7eat51
09-14-2013, 22:31
She is a beautifully done fleet, Rory. The amount of time you must have spent on rigging kind of boggles my mind. Will we see some future pics of these in battle?

Well done, my Friend. :hats off:

When I saw these photos in your email, you made up my mind concerning the first round of Tumbling Dice minis; they will be Russian. Afterwards, I realized they will coincide with GMT's upcoming release of Blue Cross, White Ensign. Thanks for the inspiration.

Berthier
09-15-2013, 07:14
Fantastic fleet Rory, you continue to impress with fine work.

Comte de Brueys
09-15-2013, 08:06
Great fleet, Rory. :salute:




One point: The dismasted ship looks funny.

I think the enemy carronades cleared the deck before they aimed at the masts. :wink:

Cmmdre
09-15-2013, 10:39
Admiral of the fleets. Rory you've outdone yourself.:hatsoff:

Devsdoc
09-15-2013, 14:28
A truly impressive fleet, Rory! Thanks for sharing the photos. The wreck turned out really well!

Which engagements are you going to be recreating with this fleet? Be sure to post those photos whenever those battles take place.

They have! last Monday. But this dummy forgot his camera! It was against the French on an English shore-line (who hated both fleets). We had 6 turns and no winner. I would love to play against Vol's Dutch fleet. Maybe one day :pray:


Very nice Rory. Much bigger photos than in your e-mail. The wreck looks good. I like your Toulon tower on the shore too. Now if I can just get my Dutch fleet finished........

One day, Vol. One day


She is a beautifully done fleet, Rory. The amount of time you must have spent on rigging kind of boggles my mind. Will we see some future pics of these in battle?

Well done, my Friend. :hats off:

When I saw these photos in your email, you made up my mind concerning the first round of Tumbling Dice minis; they will be Russian. Afterwards, I realized they will coincide with GMT's upcoming release of Blue Cross, White Ensign. Thanks for the inspiration.

If I remember my camera, I'm sorry for the inspiration. The Russians are all black and white. At the end I started to hate them.


Fantastic fleet Rory, you continue to impress with fine work.

Thank you, Daniel.


Great fleet, Rory. :salute:

One point: The dismasted ship looks funny.

I think the enemy carronades cleared the deck before they aimed at the masts. :wink:

You are right. After painting her I thought she need more. I added the stringing? I think it still looks wrong.


Admiral of the fleets. Rory you've outdone yourself.:hatsoff:

Think you, Paul. I thought I had lost you as a friend, I'm glad it is not so.

Be safe, to you all
Rory

Rabbit
09-18-2013, 11:14
The Russians are all black and white. At the end I started to hate them.



Rory,

I see from earlier posts you have made that you have the book, Russian Warships in the age of sail; Design construction careers and fates. Are all Russian ships in black and white, to your knowledge, I have seen info that suggests that some had green hulls?

From TMP
http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=180515

Were any painted Green with White stripes that you know of, or was this a later occurrence or even a result of fading paint and poor colour reproduction?

rabbit

DeRuyter
09-18-2013, 12:04
Rory:

Nice work. Looks like you used Langton's rigging method, is that right?

On the wrecked ship I might suggest removing some of the rigging lines and sails if you can. The rigging would look better attached to the corners of the sails and trailing off in the water. I think some of the wreckage would have been carried off still attached to the masts. Maybe a bit of "less is better" if you will.

Eric

Gunner
09-18-2013, 12:31
Rory,

I see from earlier posts you have made that you have the book, Russian Warships in the age of sail; Design construction careers and fates. Are all Russian ships in black and white, to your knowledge, I have seen info that suggests that some had green hulls?

From TMP
http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=180515

Were any painted Green with White stripes that you know of, or was this a later occurrence or even a result of fading paint and poor colour reproduction?

rabbit


I don't remember where but, I remember reading that they were painted a dark green with white stripes.
When I get time, I'll give mine a little darker wash. Along with other improvements.

6953

Volunteer
09-18-2013, 15:12
I don't remember where but, I remember reading that they were painted a dark green with white stripes.
When I get time, I'll give mine a little darker wash. Along with other improvements.

6953

Ed, where did you get the furled driver sail for this ship? I've not seen one before from any of the different makers.

Vol

Nightmoss
09-18-2013, 15:23
I don't remember where but, I remember reading that they were painted a dark green with white stripes.
When I get time, I'll give mine a little darker wash. Along with other improvements.

6953

Nice ship, Ed. I like the studded sails!

David Manley
09-18-2013, 15:26
Ed, where did you get the furled driver sail for this ship? I've not seen one before from any of the different makers.

Vol

Its in one of the Langton sail sets.

7eat51
09-18-2013, 15:44
Ed, this is a very nice ship. I hope it wasn't one of the ones that was damaged previously.

Rabbit, I believe it is you who posted this link of Russian ships on TMP. Good stuff here: http://windgammers.narod.ru/Korabli5.html

Gunner
09-18-2013, 15:53
Its in one of the Langton sail sets.

Good eyes David. It is Langton.

Gunner
09-18-2013, 16:01
Posted in error.

Gunner
09-18-2013, 16:05
Ed, this is a very nice ship. I hope it wasn't one of the ones that was damaged previously.

Yep, sorry to say it was.

csadn
09-18-2013, 17:24
An indicator of how my brain works: Every time I look at the pics of those ships, I hear the old "nWo" theme music from the days of World Championship Wrestling....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBaYhIaA7U8

Must be the black-and-white.... :)

Devsdoc
09-18-2013, 19:47
Rory,

I see from earlier posts you have made that you have the book, Russian Warships in the age of sail; Design construction careers and fates. Are all Russian ships in black and white, to your knowledge, I have seen info that suggests that some had green hulls?

From TMP
http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=180515

Were any painted Green with White stripes that you know of, or was this a later occurrence or even a result of fading paint and poor colour reproduction?

rabbit

Hi Rab,
I would stand by this above book. The cover shows laid-up ships of the Russian fleet 1851. Lots of black and white. In 1696 Peter 1st became sole ruler of Russian. He made a number of reforms to the Russian fleets. He opened 2 maritime academies, established a new system of schools to teach navigation. He replaced the white dress uniform for dark green. He also set a uniformed colour for Russian war ships of white on black. So between around 1697? to 1851 is a lot of black and white. We know sea water can change colours. Maybe one or two ships had different colours, I don't know?


Rory:

Nice work. Looks like you used Langton's rigging method, is that right?

On the wrecked ship I might suggest removing some of the rigging lines and sails if you can. The rigging would look better attached to the corners of the sails and trailing off in the water. I think some of the wreckage would have been carried off still attached to the masts. Maybe a bit of "less is better" if you will.

Eric

Hi Eric,
I rig as I showed in my thread. Langton's method "ish"
This is only my 3rd wrecked ship. The rigging on this one looks like spray crazy string, not good. But I do like the sails on this one. I'm learning too. I will not re-do this one, as it is just a marker. I plan to make a number of them min 2 for each fleet. I hope to get better each time


I don't remember where but, I remember reading that they were painted a dark green with white stripes.
When I get time, I'll give mine a little darker wash. Along with other improvements.

6953

Hi Ed,
I love your ships. You must fix them. Please see above about colours
Be safe to you all
Rory

Devsdoc
09-18-2013, 20:25
Rory,

I see from earlier posts you have made that you have the book, Russian Warships in the age of sail; Design construction careers and fates. Are all Russian ships in black and white, to your knowledge, I have seen info that suggests that some had green hulls?

From TMP
http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=180515

Were any painted Green with White stripes that you know of, or was this a later occurrence or even a result of fading paint and poor colour reproduction?

rabbit

Rab,
I cannot open your named TMP thread. Can you give me Date and thread name of this please. So I can look at it.
Be safe
Rory

Gunner
09-18-2013, 21:07
I just looked at the dust cover of my copy of RUSSIAN WARSHIPS in the AGE of SAIL 1696-1860 and it shows Dark Green sides with white stripes.

Devsdoc
09-19-2013, 03:40
I just looked at the dust cover of my copy of RUSSIAN WARSHIPS in the AGE of SAIL 1696-1860 and it shows Dark Green sides with white stripes.

Hi Ed,
Dark green rails and dark green bottoms yes. The rails are green. the lower part looks to me like old copper gone green. the sides seem black and white to me. Page 28 of the book tells of the ships colour. Look at my copy in my album and thread "The Russians are coming".
Be safe
Rory

Gunner
09-19-2013, 04:45
Hi Ed,
Dark green rails and dark green bottoms yes. The rails are green. the lower part looks to me like old copper gone green. the sides seem black and white to me. Page 28 of the book tells of the ships colour. Look at my copy in my album and thread "The Russians are coming".
Be safe
Rory

Very odd that my copy shows only one black stripe just above the waterline and the rest dark green with white stripes. It might my cover was the end of the cover run and the ink was starting to fade. Yes I read the 5th paragraph of page 28 but, I wonder if all Russian ships could have been repainted in his short 5 year reign, if it was even implemented.
Please see http://my.erinet.com/~bp/pt_napnv.html#National_Ship_Colors showing green hull & white stripes by Ray Trochim.

7eat51
09-19-2013, 07:08
Interesting link, Ed. Thanks for sharing it.

I think this discussion illustrates that our knowledge and understanding of history is always incomplete, and this discrepancies are not uncommon.

From a gaming point-of-view, do you recommend keeping fleets uniform in color, or is some variation acceptable in not causing confusion for players? I am not an experienced AoS mini player, and the traditional hex-and-chit games I have played basically use single national colors.

Rabbit
09-19-2013, 11:47
Rab,
I cannot open your named TMP thread. Can you give me Date and thread name of this please. So I can look at it.
Be safe
Rory

Rory, the TMP thread is in the “ Napoleonic Naval Painting Guides Message Board!
"Painting Russian ships" Topic topic title
First post by fleabeard 28 Sep 2009 1:22 p.m. PST

Last post by rabbit (yes it is) 15 Feb 2012 12:55 p.m. PST

Type Russian ships into the search function and it should be one of the ones that comes up.

Good luck.

If I had such a tome, I too would follow its word so Black and white they will be unless someone comes up with a different source.
Interesting Quote from Admiral Lazarev …


Is the book Russian?, (it does not look as though it is) I have two copies of the same Russian uniform book, a buddy has a third, yet the colour plates in each book vary dramatically, even though they were all nominally the same print run...

rabbit

Gunner
09-19-2013, 13:52
Rab,
I cannot open your named TMP thread. Can you give me Date and thread name of this please. So I can look at it.
Be safe
Rory

Rory, another way to find http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=180515 is to use a search engine like Bing, and type in Painting Russian ships.

Gunner
09-19-2013, 14:28
Interesting link, Ed. Thanks for sharing it.

I think this discussion illustrates that our knowledge and understanding of history is always incomplete, and this discrepancies are not uncommon.

From a gaming point-of-view, do you recommend keeping fleets uniform in color, or is some variation acceptable in not causing confusion for players? I am not an experienced AoS mini player, and the traditional hex-and-chit games I have played basically use single national colors.

Hi Eric,

One would think that after 200 years there would be a definitive book on ship colors of the Napoleonic wars. Too bad Osprey publishing doesn't push for a Naval Ship colors of the Napoleonic wars series and list the different sources (with color pictures).
As for me, I'll stick with the Nelson checker for the British at Trafalgar, and for my Russians, Dark Green with white stripes (there's no mistaking my Russians on the seas of battle).

Devsdoc
09-19-2013, 15:29
Very odd that my copy shows only one black stripe just above the waterline and the rest dark green with white stripes. It might my cover was the end of the cover run and the ink was starting to fade. Yes I read the 5th paragraph of page 28 but, I wonder if all Russian ships could have been repainted in his short 5 year reign, if it was even implemented.
Please see http://my.erinet.com/~bp/pt_napnv.html#National_Ship_Colors showing green hull & white stripes by Ray Trochim.

Hi Ed,
Thanks for your information. I will and do not put anyone down. To see painted ships is just a great thing to see. What colour they are is for the owner of the ship to pick. I'm very sorry but I can see green rails and green at the water line only. The rest is black and white. I will answer the rest below.

6961


Interesting link, Ed. Thanks for sharing it.

I think this discussion illustrates that our knowledge and understanding of history is always incomplete, and this discrepancies are not uncommon.

From a gaming point-of-view, do you recommend keeping fleets uniform in color, or is some variation acceptable in not causing confusion for players? I am not an experienced AoS mini player, and the traditional hex-and-chit games I have played basically use single national colors.

Oh, Eric,
Its a mine-field out there. Each of us going off in our own way. I know my ships are not all the right colours. That is for ease of playing only. If I was doing bigger scales or one of the famous ships, I would try and make it right. At this scale 1-1200 or smaller I'm looking at fleets. Some of you are aiming for ship duels of maybe max 2 or 3 ships a side. So you are using named ships and want them 100% right. That is great and O.K. by me. I love fleet actions, so paint for fleets. For me at 1-1200 or as you have 1-4800 scale I would colour for fleets.


Rory, the TMP thread is in the “ Napoleonic Naval Painting Guides Message Board!
"Painting Russian ships" Topic topic title
First post by fleabeard 28 Sep 2009 1:22 p.m. PST

Last post by rabbit (yes it is) 15 Feb 2012 12:55 p.m. PST

Type Russian ships into the search function and it should be one of the ones that comes up.

Good luck.

If I had such a tome, I too would follow its word so Black and white they will be unless someone comes up with a different source.
Interesting Quote from Admiral Lazarev …


Is the book Russian?, (it does not look as though it is) I have two copies of the same Russian uniform book, a buddy has a third, yet the colour plates in each book vary dramatically, even though they were all nominally the same print run...

rabbit

Rab & Ed,
O.K. Both of you are using the same source, Ray Trockim. He uses 2 sources. One is "Splicing the Mainbrace" by Rod Langton in the "Miniature Wargames" January 1990. At no point is the colour of Russian hulls shown or talked about. This article is the bases of his " A Guide to Assembly, Painting & Rigging of Napoleonic Naval Models in Scale 1:1200" published in April 1999. In this book he says on page 20 "There are Reports that some Spanish vessels and several Russians were black". Again no green. Sources 2 I have not seen Otto von Pivka book so I cannot talk about it, but one book on all of the navies in this period must be very big and general. John Tredrea & Eduard Sozev have gone back to Russian sources and have if possible gone for each ship name by name, size by size, armament by armament and the history of the said ship. I think if one or more had a green paint job they would have said. This book was published in 2010. It maybe wrong. But I for one reading it think not. So I stand by my black and white Russian fleet. Ed, if one day we can put our fleets together and be apart of a big game, would make me a very happy man. be they green and white or not.
Rab,
Thank for showing me the way to the TMP thread.
Be safe all
Rory

Gunner
09-19-2013, 16:07
Rab & Ed,
O.K. Both of you are using the same source, Ray Trockim. He uses 2 sources. One is "Splicing the Mainbrace" by Rod Langton in the "Miniature Wargames" January 1990. At no point is the colour of Russian hulls shown or talked about. This article is the bases of his " A Guide to Assembly, Painting & Rigging of Napoleonic Naval Models in Scale 1:1200" published in April 1999. In this book he says on page 20 "There are Reports that some Spanish vessels and several Russians were black". Again no green. Sources 2 I have not seen Otto von Pivka book so I cannot talk about it, but one book on all of the navies in this period must be very big and general. John Tredrea & Eduard Sozev have gone back to Russian sources and have if possible gone for each ship name by name, size by size, armament by armament and the history of the said ship. I think if one or more had a green paint job they would have said. This book was published in 2010. It maybe wrong. But I for one reading it think not. So I stand by my black and white Russian fleet. Ed, if one day we can put our fleets together and be apart of a big game, would make me a very happy man. be they green and white or not.
Rab,
Thank for showing me the way to the TMP thread.
Be safe all
Rory

I have Pivka's, Navies of the Napoleonic Era, and while he goes in great detail on colors and markings of Russian Naval uniforms, I can find no mention of ship colors.

Wear Ship Dave
09-19-2013, 16:26
I'm curious if this is a case of black paint fading and appearing green.

Devsdoc
09-19-2013, 16:26
I have Pivka's, Navies of the Napoleonic Era, and while he goes in great detail on colors and markings of Russian Naval uniforms, I can find no mention of ship colors.

Ed,
I just love your ships, and hope you can get around to getting them on the games table again. As said before, If I win the lotto in the U.K. I'm shipping me and my ships state side for some games. If my dream comes true. I hope I can add you to my list. Is Pivka's book worth looking out for?
Be safe
Rory

Devsdoc
09-19-2013, 16:39
I'm curious if this is a case of black paint fading and appearing green.

Hi David (Dave),
Maybe? The Russians did not look after there ships well. They had a very short life 10 to 15 years only. Not like the rest of the navies of this time. Some in service for 40 years plus (not always in the same navy). Black would go greenish after some time. So this could be the answer to all of this part of this thread.
Be safe
Rory

Gunner
09-19-2013, 16:56
Ed,
I just love your ships, and hope you can get around to getting them on the games table again. As said before, If I win the lotto in the U.K. I'm shipping me and my ships state side for some games. If my dream comes true. I hope I can add you to my list. Is Pivka's book worth looking out for?
Be safe
Rory

Rory, if you ever get to Southern Arizona, I'd be happy to put you up for a while.
Pivka's, Navies of the Napoleonic Era was one of the first books to go into my Napoleonic library. Amazon.com has some in good condition for under $6.00 U.S.

Wear Ship Dave
09-19-2013, 17:01
Rory, if you ever get to Southern Arizona, I'd be happy to put you up for a while.
Pivka's, Navies of the Napoleonic Era was one of the first books to go into my Napoleonic library. Amazon.com has some in good condition for under $6.00 U.S.

There is a book by the same name by Digby... Is this a re-release perhaps? It even has the same number of pages.

Gunner
09-19-2013, 17:58
There is a book by the same name by Digby... Is this a re-release perhaps? It even has the same number of pages.

Good question, the same amount of pages, even the same illustration (The battle of Copenhagen 1801) on the jacket, but different authors. Has anyone seen both?

Wear Ship Dave
09-19-2013, 19:17
Good question, the same amount of pages, even the same illustration (The battle of Copenhagen 1801) on the jacket, but different authors. Has anyone seen both?

And I've found the answer...

From the Wiki about Digby Smith

"Since 1995, he has concentrated full-time on the writing of military history, some of which he wrote for Osprey Military Publishing under the nom de plume of Otto von Pivka."

So, it is the same book and new copies are available under the Digby Smith name.

Gunner
09-19-2013, 19:45
And I've found the answer...

From the Wiki about Digby Smith

"Since 1995, he has concentrated full-time on the writing of military history, some of which he wrote for Osprey Military Publishing under the nom de plume of Otto von Pivka."So, it is the same book and new copies are available under the Digby Smith name.

Now I'm more confused than ever. On the Osprey publishing site it say, Otto von Pivka (the nom de plume of Digby Smith) wrote his first book for Osprey in 1972. He is a prolific author, who has contributed many titles to the Men-at-Arms series on the armies and forces of the Napoleonic Wars. A former major in the British Army, he is now retired, but continues to write books on this key period.

But on the back cover of Navies of the Napoleonic era published by Hippocrenne, it has a picture of him with the following statement under it,
OTTO von Pivka was born in Sonthofen, southern Germany, in 1920; his parents were Austrian. In 1938 he joined the Wehrmacht and became an infantry officer. During the war he served in North Africa and on the Russian Front; he was wounded at the capture of Tobruk After the war he devoted his spare time to perfecting his English in London and Vienna, and studied the history of the German peoples, concentrating on the Napoleonic era.

Seems like the more I read the more confused I get.

Wear Ship Dave
09-19-2013, 19:56
Now I'm more confused than ever. On the Osprey publishing site it say, Otto von Pivka (the nom de plume of Digby Smith) wrote his first book for Osprey in 1972. He is a prolific author, who has contributed many titles to the Men-at-Arms series on the armies and forces of the Napoleonic Wars. A former major in the British Army, he is now retired, but continues to write books on this key period.

But on the back cover of Navies of the Napoleonic era published by Hippocrenne, it has a picture of him with the following statement under it,
OTTO von Pivka was born in Sonthofen, southern Germany, in 1920; his parents were Austrian. In 1938 he joined the Wehrmacht and became an infantry officer. During the war he served in North Africa and on the Russian Front; he was wounded at the capture of Tobruk After the war he devoted his spare time to perfecting his English in London and Vienna, and studied the history of the German peoples, concentrating on the Napoleonic era.

Seems like the more I read the more confused I get.

Hmmm... Seems like when it comes to his Author bio, he is more of a fiction writer than an historian...

7eat51
09-19-2013, 20:29
Hi Eric,

One would think that after 200 years there would be a definitive book on ship colors of the Napoleonic wars. Too bad Osprey publishing doesn't push for a Naval Ship colors of the Napoleonic wars series and list the different sources (with color pictures).
As for me, I'll stick with the Nelson checker for the British at Trafalgar, and for my Russians, Dark Green with white stripes (there's no mistaking my Russians on the seas of battle).

Ed, I would love such a book, and it seems like a very sensible and marketable title. I am surprised that there does not seem to be such a book in print. Sounds like a project for some folks here.

When you have sufficiently salvaged your ships, would mind posting some pics of different nations in one photo? It would be nice to see side-by-side comparisons, for example, between a British, French, Spanish, Russian, etc. ships-of-the-line.



Oh, Eric,
Its a mine-field out there. Each of us going off in our own way. I know my ships are not all the right colours. That is for ease of playing only. If I was doing bigger scales or one of the famous ships, I would try and make it right. At this scale 1-1200 or smaller I'm looking at fleets. Some of you are aiming for ship duels of maybe max 2 or 3 ships a side. So you are using named ships and want them 100% right. That is great and O.K. by me. I love fleet actions, so paint for fleets. For me at 1-1200 or as you have 1-4800 scale I would colour for fleets.


Rory, I like your style. My modeling will be for gaming and the fun of trying my hand at modeling. If I am not completely incompetent at it, I might try a model for "show" one day. I can see in such a project the desire for historical accurateness. For gaming, I was thinking close is good enough. I would defer, though, to those of you with experience. Thanks for the sound advice.

Wear Ship Dave
09-29-2013, 00:36
Pivka's, Navies of the Napoleonic Era was one of the first books to go into my Napoleonic library. Amazon.com has some in good condition for under $6.00 U.S.

I received a copy of it in the mail today. Found it on Amazon, residing in a used book store in Georgia. It cost me $5.68 +$4.00 shipping. The dust cover is a bit tattered, but the book itself is in very good condition.

I look forward to reading it.

Comte de Brueys
10-01-2013, 01:50
...

You are right. After painting her I thought she need more. I added the stringing? I think it still looks wrong.

It's the position of the sails that cover the whole ship like a shroud.

If the mast is hit, it falls to one direction and pulls the sail to that direction, too.

I can imagine that one of the sails is shot off with a lucky hit, falling down on the deck and covers parts of the deck, but not three sails at once and the same time. :wink:

The crew would immediately try to get rid of this sail, that blocks the line of sight, movement on deck and some gunports.



But this is only a little notice. The fleet looks great.

Devsdoc
10-01-2013, 11:12
Hi Sven,
I liked the falling sails bit. And got carried away with them. I was thinking of the paintings of the end-game of the battle of Trafalgar with all the ships dismasted and just hulls.
But you are right. I'm learning as I go too. I like that folks look and see and comment on my ships. It is O.K. with me. The next one will be better. I hope! But not yet, I'm doing a 7 ship fleet of merchantman
Be safe
Rory

Comte de Brueys
10-01-2013, 11:43
That's ok.

French 80-gun ship-of-the-line Bucentaure at Trafalgar. :salute:

That's what I ment with masts and sails. :wink:

Devsdoc
10-01-2013, 11:52
Thanks Sven :salute:
Be safe
Rory