Sail Question

[csadn]

What's to stop someone making sails for his ship minis out of actual fabric?

[7eat51]

In my case, skill.

[Devsdoc]

Hi Chris,
The weave of the fabric would look wrong and be to big for this scale 1/1200 or 1/1000.
Be safe
Rory

[Bruce]

In my opinion, actual fabric sails at this scale won't "hang" well unless you billow/form them in advance and set them with lacquer or something else ... and this is essentially what you've got with store-bought (e.g. lead/amalgam) sails at 1/10th the hassle.
I tried years ago with a bigger sailing ship model (rejecting the rigid plastic sails that came with the kit) and after much frustration gratefully went back to the rigid plastic ones.
But ... maybe you'll find a way to make it work, just don't count on it.

[Gunner]

What's to stop someone making sails for his ship minis out of actual fabric?

Interesting idea Chris. You might want to check out a fabric store and look around. Maybe bum some scraps.
I have a thin but dense T-shirt that might work. Would you use starch to give it a billowing look?

[David Manley]

If you could find an extremely light fabric it could work, but as said above, it wouldn't hang right (unless you were modelling a becalmed ship) unless you glued or starched it. Paper works well for sails

[Berthier]

Interesting idea Chris. You might want to check out a fabric store and look around. Maybe bum some scraps.
I have a thin but dense T-shirt that might work. Would you use starch to give it a billowing look?

Ed I would think you would have to create a mold (like an ice cube holder but shallow and sail shaped, or the opposite where you lay the material over a raised mold and let it drape down to create the shape) of some description, place the material into the mold, treat it to stiffen it (lacquer, glue?) let it set then remove and trim. You could use real canvas but to get it thin enough might be impossible. Bruce's point about the hassle is valid but if you discover the secret you could make a tiny fortune :sly:

Another problem is going to be the number of sail variations you will need in size and shape.

[Gunner]

Another problem is going to be the number of sail variations you will need in size and shape.

That's why I just dismissed the thought of trying it myself.:surrender: But if you were snowed in somewhere, it might be a nice project.

[DeRuyter]

If you could find an extremely light fabric it could work, but as said above, it wouldn't hang right (unless you were modelling a becalmed ship) unless you glued or starched it. Paper works well for sails

Some of the larger scale wargaming ships use paper sails. Of course there are also the paper ship kits (see www.warartisan.com). I have found paper sails easier to work with than the brass Langton sails! A little white glue, a dowel and off you go. Still not sure this is practical in 1/1000 -1/1200.

Eric

[Wear Ship Dave]

In my youth, I built a few plastic ship models. On one particular ship, I believe it was Drake's Golden Hind, I didn't like the plastic sails that came with it. Here's what I did.

Peel away a single ply from a facial tissue, such as Kleenex. Cut the tissue to the desired size. Sharp scissors are a must.

Next step, attach your sail to the spar. I suggest a thin CA glue. This is easier if your spar is not yet attached to the mast.

Now glue a length of your rigging thread to each of the two lower corners of you sail.

Mix some basic PVA glue (such as Elmer's brand white glue) with water. You want it to be fairly thin. Dip your sail carefully in your thinned glue. You want to impregnate the tissue with the glue.

Now suspend your sail so it hangs freely. Carefully pull the two rigging lines to give the sail the shape that you desire. Tape off the rigging lines so they hold the tissue in the shape.

Allow to dry.

Once dry, the tissue should hold it's shape.

It is fairly fragile though, so it may not be practical for the gaming table. Perhaps tissue paper would be better.

If I have time, I will put one together and photograph the step by step for you all to see.

[David Manley]

Dave, that would be good to see

[Wear Ship Dave]

Dave, that would be good to see

I might have some time tomorrow to do it. What do you think the basic dimensions are for a main sail (in mm) at 1/1000 scale? I don't currently own any small ship models.

[Gunner]

Thanks Dave. Food for thought for other metal and plastic sails.

Don't know the sizes of all the 1000 sails but, they would be 20% larger than the 1/1200 size.

[Devsdoc]

I'm making a 1-1200 scale wreck. I have used kitchen roll paper for it. I have done as David (by the way, Hi David.) has done. But I have laid all the sails over the hull and worked it into the ship with a cocktail stick, as if all the masts are shot away. Would, if you lay the wet/glued sheets over a round piece of wood/plastic or food tin covered with Clingfilm. When dry peel them off, cut to shape and size, work?
Be safe
Rory

6694

[Nightmoss]

Rory, that looks pretty cool! Is that a British ship wreck? :wink:

[Devsdoc]

Rory, that looks pretty cool! Is that a British ship wreck? :wink:

Hi Jim,
No, it will become a Russian wreck. I'm very pleased with the out come and this will be the first of many wrecks for my fleets. Russian, French and :wink: British.
Be safe
Rory

[Coog]

Rory, that looks pretty cool! Is that a British ship wreck? :wink:

Rory are sure Jim is not right? It does look a lot like a British 38.:question:

6697

[Devsdoc]

Is this lets have a go at Rory day today? I can go off you lot. :cry:
Be safe
Rory

[Nightmoss]

Is this lets have a go at Rory day today? I can go off you lot. :cry:
Be safe
Rory

Just kidding you a little. :wink:

By the way, I can handle a Russian wreck just fine. :happy:

[Volunteer]

I have used tissue as well impregnated with PVA, just for wrecks so far and one ship that I aquired that had none.
6710

[Wear Ship Dave]

I had a little time this morning, so a whipped up a quick and dirty example. Here's some photos of the HMS Floral Foam. Forgive my toothpick mast and yards!

I originally tried dipping the sail in the watered down PVA glue, but found with sails this small, it was simpler to attach the sail to the yard by brushing some glue on the spar them placing the sail. It sticks easily. Then once the rigging is tied off, using a brush to "paint" the glue onto the sail.

Also, rather than separating out a single ply of the tissue, I just used both together.

I spent about 30 minutes on this total, so expect better results if you're working more for a finished result instead of just a proof of concept.

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EDIT: I've resized and replaced the image files to hopefully speed up page loading for folks.

[7eat51]

Very nice, David. I think I have a wife who would enjoy such a project.

It seems that it would be quite easy to put holes or tears in the sails, giving them a battle-fought look.

[Wear Ship Dave]

Very nice, David. I think I have a wife who would enjoy such a project.

It seems that it would be quite easy to put holes or tears in the sails, giving them a battle-fought look.

Quite so. It would be quite easy to add damage to the sails. I suggest that you make the holes while the tissue is still wet with the watered down glue. Maybe using the pointy tip of a toothpick to make cannon ball sized holes.

[Devsdoc]

Hi David,
I like your idea. I do not think I would go so far with modelling unless I had a ship with no sails. This is an idea to bank.
Vol,
Love your wrecks. As always gives me ideas for mine.
Be safe both.
Rory

[CHolgren]

Has anyone looked into Portsmouth Miniatures(www.portsmouthminiatures.com)? They have a 1:900 range of ships. The details aren't in line with Langton, but the prices are better if you're creating wrecks. They use paper sails as well as steel wire/rods for masts to give you an idea of what I mean by details.

[Wear Ship Dave]

Just an update... My tissue sails have now dried, and I think they are surprisingly robust.

If I were to make sails in this fashion for a game piece, I think I might give them a coat or two more of the PVA glue. Overall though, I think they would survive gaming use by anyone willing to use a moderate amount of care in handling them. I intentionally dropped my HMS Floral Foam upside down from table height half a dozen times with no visible damage to the tissue sails.

[7eat51]

EDIT: I've resized and replaced the image files to hopefully speed up page loading for folks.

Second EDIT: Hmmm.... Apparently the original large images remain attached to the post... So, I may have made it worse.

Original images have been removed. Thanks again David for the idea and pictorial lesson. Great stuff. :thumbsup:

[Wear Ship Dave]

Thanks Eric!

[csadn]

Mm -- I've tried most of these methods; but they just don't look quite right to me....

I was thinking with the fabric: Lay it over some sort of shaping device (a cardboard tube, or similar), then starch that mo-fo 'til it's stiffer than the regulars at the _WoG_ Officers' Mess. :)

[Wear Ship Dave]

Mm -- I've tried most of these methods; but they just don't look quite right to me....

I was thinking with the fabric: Lay it over some sort of shaping device (a cardboard tube, or similar), then starch that mo-fo 'til it's stiffer than the regulars at the _WoG_ Officers' Mess. :)

I would use something very large, like an empty 1 gallon paint can or maybe something even bigger(paper label removed). Even at this small scale, a paper towel cardboard tube will give you more curvature than I think that you want. I would suggest using a fabric piece much larger than the sail that you need. Stiffen it (I would probably still use watered down PVA glue), once dry cut the sail shape you need with a razor knife and peel it away from the can.

I think the biggest challenge, really, is to find a fabric that has a fine enough weave that it looks right. Maybe a satin fabric. Not sure, I would need to wander around a fabric store and see what is available.

Just a few thoughts.