American Civil War Naval Games

[7eat51]

GMT has two new American Civil War (ACW) naval games coming out this year. I am debating purchasing them. Can anyone recommend ACW naval games they like a lot, and possibly share a few reasons why?

The GMT games:

Iron and Oak: http://www.gmtgames.com/p-293-iron-and-oak.aspx

Rebel Raiders on the High Seas: http://www.gmtgames.com/p-238-rebel-raiders-on-the-high-seas.aspx

[David Manley]

The "classic" ACW naval game is "Ironclads" which I think is OOP (although Toby Barrett at Thoroughbred has bought the rights to republish). There was an unofficial variant called "Shot and Shell" which is pretty hard to come by now.

Are you interested in miniatures rules as well?

[Berthier]

Ironclads and the expansion set were originally published by Yaquinto. Excalibre games reprinted them (distributed by Decision Games) and they are pretty easy to find. But..the reprints switched the counter images from top down to side on views and made all the counters the same size and were not well received. The whole system uses cards for each ship counter with top down views and the larger ship counter size of the first edition was more intuitive for facing. It's not a deal breaker but you can pick up the Ironclads originals on ebay (but be patient they can be pricey). The second editions are under $40 each for the main game and expansion. The Shot and Shell game was by 3W and a direct copy of the system and fully compatible.

http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/2800/ironclads
http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgameexpansion/2798/the-ironclads-expansion-kit
http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/6924/shot-and-shell

Example of a ship card
http://cf.geekdo-images.com/images/pic136937_md.jpg

old style counters
http://cf.geekdo-images.com/images/pic176150.jpg
new style
http://cf.geekdo-images.com/images/pic136939_lg.jpg

[Berthier]

Shot and shell counters
http://cf.geekdo-images.com/images/pic343756_lg.jpg

Firing arc template examples
http://cf.geekdo-images.com/images/pic343749_md.jpg

All images from boardgamegeek

[csadn]

It's also possible to play out ACW events using GDW's _Ironclads and Ether Flyers_ rules.

[7eat51]

Thanks guys for the Ironclads recommendation - seems to be the one to get as for traditional chit-and hex games. Daniel, thanks for the visuals.

David, I am interested in mini rules as well. I think minis is the way to go for conventions and FLGS evenings, especially when trying to attract younger players, i.e. those under 35.

Off to ebay...

[David Manley]

David, I am interested in mini rules as well. I think minis is the way to go for conventions and FLGS evenings, especially when trying to attract younger players, i.e. those under 35.

Off to ebay...

I've written three sets of ironclad rules so far. The first is "Iron and Fire" which I had published by Felix nterprises and then A&AGE nearly 15 years ago. They seem to be quite popular :) As well as the core rules that covered ACW, Lissa, south American campaigns etc. I also wrote a supplement that expanded on the ACW lists greatly. The second started as a variant on MGPs "Victory at Sea" but morphed into a decent standalone set, and the third is a quick play "fast and furious" set based on GW's "Man o' War" game. I use a similar variant for fun age of sail games at conventions and shows, and the ACW set is designed to do the same thing (although its not had an outing yet)

As far as models are concerned - i started in 1/1200 woth Navwar, some Skytrex and (more recently) Rod Langton's models. For big actions such as Trent's Reach, Vicksburg etc. they are ideal - also great if you don't have much in the way of table space. a few years back I got into 1/600, using Thoroughbred, Peter Pig and Bay Area Yards models. Visually much better than 1/1200 but of course they take up much more room and are more expensive.

Some examples of the 1/600 variety here:

http://dtbsam.blogspot.co.uk/2011/09/finished-at-last.html

[Berthier]

Wow that's a lot of ships David. Nice modelling.

[Nightmoss]

Impressive number of ships and the detailing is amazing! :salute:

[David Manley]

Thats one of the other benefits of 1/600 - you can have a lot of fun with the painting and detailing!

[7eat51]

Thank you David. Are your rules sets on the same site as Form Line of Battle?

That is a very nice collection of ships.

[David Manley]

Thank you David. Are your rules sets on the same site as Form Line of Battle?.

The published set is, yes

[7eat51]

The published set is, yes

Great. I will pick one up.

A friend of mine and I will be reading your rules on ancient naval warfare this week. I also got this book in the mail today. Looks like an informative week or two lies ahead.

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[David Manley]

Great. I will pick one up.

A friend of mine and I will be reading your rules on ancient naval warfare this week. I also got this book in the mail today. Looks like an informative week or two lies ahead.

4614

Ah yes, a classic. Mr Rodgers knew his stuff when it came to oared warships. This and his similar work on navies of the Renaissance are classics

[7eat51]

Ah yes, a classic. Mr Rodgers knew his stuff when it came to oared warships. This and his similar work on navies of the Renaissance are classics

Naval Warfare Under Oars?

[David Manley]

Just saw a video review of "Iron and Oak" - didn't look particularly impressive to me I'm afraid (in fact it looked more like a starship combat game with reference to damaging the "shields" of various hit locations)

I'd like to see the campaign system though, I expect it has some good concepts.

[7eat51]

Just saw a video review of "Iron and Oak" - didn't look particularly impressive to me I'm afraid (in fact it looked more like a starship combat game with reference to damaging the "shields" of various hit locations)

I'd like to see the campaign system though, I expect it has some good concepts.

That's disheartening. I have been outbid the last few weeks on amazon regarding Ironclads, and the other first editions are quite expensive. I started looking at the second edition and Iron and Oak as possible substitutes.

David, did you see this video?
http://boardgamegeek.com/video/29806/iron-and-oak/video-review

[7eat51]

As far as models are concerned - i started in 1/1200 woth Navwar, some Skytrex and (more recently) Rod Langton's models. For big actions such as Trent's Reach, Vicksburg etc. they are ideal - also great if you don't have much in the way of table space. a few years back I got into 1/600, using Thoroughbred, Peter Pig and Bay Area Yards models. Visually much better than 1/1200 but of course they take up much more room and are more expensive.

Hi David,

What sources did you use for painting schemes? Internet images? Any particular book titles?

Thanks,
Eric

[David Manley]

"Warships and Naval Battles of the American Civil War" by Tony Gibbons - the first book on the subject I bought and still one of the best.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/518ufiC1y6L._SX258_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

[7eat51]

Thank you.

If I may ask, what type of prep work do you do on the 1:600s - cleaning and priming in particular? I bought a bunch based on a previous conversation of ours, and the time is right to start painting. I am ordering some AIM planes as well, so, with fingers crossed, by end of July, we'll have the beginnings of an ACW naval collection and a WWII French air force. I am hoping that the WWII planes and the 1:600s will be sufficiently easy that a modeling challenged individual such as I will be able to paint them well enough not to look like wrecks. I'll have Sue in the wings to bail me out if necessary.

[John Paul]

Toby's ships don't require a lot of prep work, and they are a real joy to paint and detail!

As he is a close friend of mine I have a rather large collection! :shock:

[Gunner]

1507515076

I have Ironclads (used twice) like new except the blank side of the counters are stamped Ed.
Also have the Ironclads Expansion Kit not used but the blank side of the counters are also stamped Ed.
Plus many Xerox copies of the ships.
$50 for both plus actual shipping.:beer:

[7eat51]

That's a good deal, Ed. I hope someone snatches it.

[Iron Outlaw]

David, I remember when I was studying Roman History at Uni, there was a book IIIRC, The Roman Imperial Army, which had a great section on the Navy. Like contemporary China, the PLA Navy, the Roman Navy was also a branch of the Army.

Now here's a thing, might Ares be tempted to do the Ancient warfare as well as the ACW? Surely the US market alone would justify the latter.

[Iron Outlaw]

Ed, do you still have that game for sale?

[Gunner]

Ed, do you still have that game for sale?

Hi Brad:beer:, yes I do.

[Iron Outlaw]

I have sent a message Ed with my details.

[Iron Outlaw]

Make that 2 messages, I left my email address off the first one!

[7eat51]

Not naval, but I received a shrink-wrapped copy of AH's Bull Run yesterday as an extra to a wargame I won on BGG. Has anyone played this?

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[David Manley]

Yes, many years ago. It seemed like a lot of fun.

[Berthier]

Not naval, but I received a shrink-wrapped copy of AH's Bull Run yesterday as an extra to a wargame I won on BGG. Has anyone played this?

15283

Never played it but have seen a lot of unpunched copies on ebay over the years at very reasonable prices. let us know your opinion and it might encourage me to take a punt. The reluctance with AH games has been those mounted map boards that make shipping to Australia so expensive!

[7eat51]

This one is under a stack of to-be-played games. With the upcoming GMT releases and all the trades I have engaged in recently, I have many hours ahead of me at the table. What a nice way to relax, however. I find, though, that each game is driving me to read on the events; thank God for amazon, used book prices, and cheap shipping costs.

[Kentop]

There are plenty of free ACW naval combat rulesets available on miniaturewargaming.com and navalwargamessociety.org

[7eat51]

Thank you for the links, Ken.

I visited the Naval Wargame Society site before, and downloaded some stuff. Great site.

For my first play, I will use David's Victory on the Rivers ruleset. I think it would be interesting to replay the scenario using the others I downloaded to see the differences between the systems. One of the nice thing about David's is that we can ask him questions about mechanics or design philosophy.

George and I played our first ACW naval game a year or so ago at a small local con. I enjoyed it. Since then, I purchased a bunch of 1:600 minis. By the end of summer, my goal is to have the beginnings of the two fleets completed. I am encouraged by the scale and the simplicity of some of the sculpts regarding my contribution to the painting process.

[David Manley]

Apologies for the NWS site not being up to scratch. I got lumbered with running it when the previous webmaster was forced by unfrtunate circumstance to pass on his duties and I was the "duty mug" who took it on. Alas I'm in the same boat so the site has had nowhere near the attention it deserves, but I did hear today that a friend is thinking of taking it on :)

[David Manley]

One of the nice thing about David's is that we can ask him questions about mechanics or design philosophy.

Lets hope I can remember that far back then :) If I recall correctly I wrote the first draft on the bridge of an RN warship nearly a decade or so ago

[7eat51]

Lets hope I can remember that far back then :) If I recall correctly I wrote the first draft on the bridge of an RN warship nearly a decade or so ago

This won't be a problem because I, for one, won't remember what you say or that I asked you. :wink:

[Gunner]

Make that 2 messages, I left my email address off the first one!

Shipped your package priority this morning Brad. Will PM details.:beer:

[7eat51]

I ordered the following used texts from amazon. I look forward to reading them:

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[Iron Outlaw]

Shipped your package priority this morning Brad. Will PM details.:beer:

Thanks mate. It should arrive whilst I am still in Canberra, I get back home on 20 July so will advise you then.

Cheers

[Iron Outlaw]

Hi Ed!

Back home and the package has arrived safe and sound. Great packing job mate, thank you.

Cheers

[Gunner]

Glad to hear it arrived in good condition Brad:drinks:

[Union Jack]

Peter Pig Hammerin Iron rules and ships. Must dig out the ships sometime. Try converting SoG rules to play them. Did the same with Dystopia Wars rules.

[7eat51]

I ordered the following games a couple of days ago. They have a unique command rule set.

Here is part of a review for one of the games on BGG (http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/232942/i-would-fight-them-if-they-were-million):

This is the area where CWB differentiates itself from many other games on the Civil War. The player does not have complete control over his units. Before a force can move or engage in serious combat, they must have orders. There are 2 ways for a unit to get orders.

Each turn the army commander has a number command points to create orders. The orders can be given verbally to aides, written, or in person (requiring the army commander go seek out the subordinate). The order can have a "force: (0-2) meaning from "attack if practicable" to "attack immediately or your relief will". The more effort made into producing the order the fewer you can create, but the more likelihood the subordinate will act upon them. Orders are broken into simple moving without fighting or complex - those which have the possibility of fighting.

You have written your order, but you're not done yet, you have to calculate using movement rates on how long it will take an aide to carry the order to the subordinate. This could be up to several turns. Of course by the time the order arrives the situation may change.

Ok now we're ready to go - well… not quite - The subordinate rolls for order acceptance which uses all the factors from above and the ratings of both the subordinate and you as commander. If it is Lee talking to Longstreet - life is good. If it is Bragg hectoring Polk well you get the drift. Three things can happen - the order may be discarded (you want me to do what?), It may be accepted (yes sir!), most likely it will be delayed - (As soon as I get my troops together we will get going.)

The other way to get orders is roll for initiative, the subordinate sees an opportunity and creates his own order. Again three things can happen 2 of them bad. You may get to write new orders, most likely nothing will happen and there is a small chance you may get a "loose cannon" result where your opponent writes an order for you to execute next turn. (Hello Dan Sickles).

What makes up an order, and yes you should write them down to give guidance when moving the subordinate commands. I try to keep them succinct and provide an approach path along with a single objective. For example:
Advance down Corinth-Pittsburg road - capture crossroad next to Water Oak pond
Defend the sunken road next to the peach Orchard.
Support the attack by 3 Corps by demonstrating across Duncan Field. (this means you want the unit to fire at a distance but not press home an attack).

Now that you got your orders all is well, again not quite, each turn when executing the order you roll for corps stoppage, based on the condition of the troops and the commander. A better (higher rated) commander has a tendency to press home the attacks then a low one. As more Brigades get shot up the odds of failing the check goes up as well. This covers a reluctance of commanders to continue making attacks or holding a position in the face of mounting casualties.

The command system sounds complex but in reality all you are trying to do is describe what your subordinate units can do, it does require you to play within the spirit of your orders. The system forces you to plan ahead, expect that things will not work the way you want, delays and missed opportunities will occur. It will be frustrating to not get an attack launched until the enemy is ready, a hole in the line unexploited, a successful attack called off when one more push would finish them off. CWB are excellent in showing how things worked for the commanders, but can make for a poor competitive game. Since I play wargames mainly for historical insight, I find this a plus.

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[Nightmoss]

These sound interesting, Eric. You'll have to let us know how they play. Just from what you posted above it sounds like the games could be fun, but could there be a level of detail that might be a tad frustrating if orders, etc. just don't come off as you'd like?

[7eat51]

I think the potential frustration is a real key to the game-play experience. I have been impressed with the development of leadership mechanisms in wargames since the early days. When I started getting back a few years ago, I saw Conflict of Heroes at Origins; I thought the leader impact was phenomenal. These games should bring a whole new experience.

Currently, I am learning D-Day Dice and 1944: Race to the Rhine. I played my first games of Field Commander: Napoleon and Zulu on the Ramparts. Both were fun; I will look for the threads in which I posted about them and comment there. My goal is to play a new game each week, as time permits. I find it a nice way to disconnect from work before going to sleep or when I need a break from writing. The nice thing about the wargames is that I can play a move and walk away. I hope to have larger chunks of time soon when Sue and I can catch up on the solo missions.