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Coog
04-16-2013, 16:52
If Ares does the War of 1812 as an expansion set instead of additional ship packs, would you participate in a Kickstarter to fund it?

The Barrelman
04-16-2013, 17:58
I would think that they would just be ship packs. There would not be any new rules to introduce like the difference between WGF and WGS.

RichardPF
04-16-2013, 18:00
If Ares does the War of 1812 as an expansion set instead of additional ship packs, would you participate in a Kickstarter to fund it?

I would participate, but why did you phrase this as "instead" ?

I think that KS is an amazing vehicle for a small business to fund projects and assess market size for a product.

I guess I don't see why they wouldn't do it as a KS project.

Nightmoss
04-16-2013, 18:03
I'd have to know more about the ships and, more importantly, the wait time until products would be expected to arrive. I'm not a KS pro, but this might be too similar to the base SoG campaign to have much traction?

However, I do think a spin off involving pirates would be very successful on KS.

Naharaht
04-16-2013, 18:14
I hope that if Ares do this, they will wait a while so that our finances can recover from the Kickstarter, which has just finished.

Coog
04-16-2013, 18:21
I would participate, but why did you phrase this as "instead" ?

I think that KS is an amazing vehicle for a small business to fund projects and assess market size for a product.

I guess I don't see why they wouldn't do it as a KS project.

Just seeing how interested players are in the War of 1812 for SOG. There are games on KS in which am interested, but I would not necessarily allocate the sums of money necessary to make participation worthwhile. There may be folks out there that can drop $200 or more at a time on projects but for me, and assume quite a few others, I really have to like the project, like the current SOG project, to make that kind of investment.

Diamondback
04-16-2013, 18:26
I for one need at least a year, probably closer to two, to bounce back from THIS one!

The problem with too much Kickstarting is, if you use it too much it becomes a full distribution channel, distro's and F- and NSFLGS's (look at the problems our European crewmates have getting WGF and WGS at their local shops!) get cut out of the loop, they get annoyed and refuse to support the product... it really is a bit of a gamble about how to use KS effectively. As long as it's kept focused on launches, or specific niche products that there isn't enough demand for a full "worldwide distribution" run of that are KS Exclusive and won't compete with the retailers and the line sold through them, then it can work. If it gets like some games where the Kickstarter is their marketing and distribution all in one, the rest of the industry will tell 'em to pound sand.

Beowulf03809
04-16-2013, 21:11
I feel War of 1812, and probably even Golden Age of Piracy are each close enough to the SGN that a KS is probably not needed for general release. A small KS program now and then to fund some niche or specialty ships that may not have a huge mass-market appeal could be good as discussed in another thread recently.

If they decide to do something in the ancient or dark ages period that could justify a big KS since it would be a significant change of rules, terrain, options, etc.

Either way though, I think a year of typical Wave X ship releases is in order before they try anything like this again.

Cmmdre
04-16-2013, 21:44
Remember Ares was only asking for $30,000. What ended up transpiring was a phenomenal success because of peoples passion for this specific product. I agree that a balance needs to be struck for business sake and further success. The money they pulled in from KS will help greatly advancing the next few projects into the pipeline. I also agree that War of 1812 and Piracy based versions compliment each other nicely. Both of which I'd like to see. These launches could be supported by Starter Set and initial wave sales. The further expansions into other periods could benefit from a realistic boost provided by KS and a little support from us. We are some of Ares best customers and sounding board. Let's just see where this initial release takes us.

Andy Blozinski
04-16-2013, 22:11
I want to make it through my first full convention demo before thinking about anything else.

David Manley
04-16-2013, 22:13
Not for a year at least

Pseudotheist
04-16-2013, 22:35
I would support an expansion Kickstarter if there were Kickstarter exclusives again, but I'd rather they just release expansions through retail channels, so I can support my local store.

RichardPF
04-16-2013, 23:03
While this project was a roaring success, I have a hard time seeing the net proceeds financing a great deal in the way of future releases.

Here is my "back of the envelope" guestimated income statement walk through for Ares for the project.

Ares has grossed about 275,000 on the Kickstarter.project
A few more dollars may come in from backers adding extras post KS, but some of the pledges will turn out to be uncollectable.
I'll call that even.

For a product like this, the wholesale price is often somewhere between 50% and 60% of suggested retail list price and direct manufacturing cost is often about half of that (+/-).
The KS price is somewhere between wholesale and retail, but in addition, Ares needs to include in this the shipping costs from China to their facility in Indiana(?)

Let's say that their cost of manufacturing and shipping is 50% of the KS "price".
That leaves them half of the KS total 137,500.

Kickstarter gets 5% of the gross to run the project (13,750)
That leaves 123,750

The funds clearing cost is about 3% (8,250) (Paypal in the US)
That leaves 115,500

Ares is picking up the entire cost of shipping to the consumer in the US and now also most of the cost of shipping for product outside the us.
I would estimate that at 12% of sales (33,000)
That leaves 82,500.

Now we are down to an amount something roughly analogous to Gross margin.
Out of this, Ares has to pay for the general costs of running their business
(rent, utilities, clerical, insurance, and the all-important misc costs).
Since they already have an existing business and SGN represents incremental sales,
this is a cost accounting allocation that could be set at anything,
but to be equitable with their other product lines I'll call it 10% (27,500).
That leaves 55,000.

There are also the specific costs of designing the models, building the prototypes, creating the artwork,
designing the packaging, travel to various locations around the world to arrange for production and distribution.
I have no idea what this would cost, and some of it will be amortized over more than just the sales from the KS project,
but 8% of sales hardly seems excessive and could well be very low (22,000)
That leaves 33,000 (and I may well have missed some costs).

This is what is left for the Ares guys and the game designers to make some money out of all this.
If something is left, they can put it back into the business.

Berthier
04-17-2013, 05:04
I love it when Bruce crunches the numbers.

As to 1812, hmmm,not being US based I don't have the affinity for that fight, so I have to say I'd prefer to see more on European matters. Australian matters are a non-starter there just aren't any! Unless you want to run a campaign of shipping convicts from Britain to Van Diemen's Land (Tasmania) where the only combat is against nature.

So I'd like to see the Spanish, Dutch and Russians, the Anglo_Dutch Wars, the pirate wars in the Mediterranean etc. Some of that crosses over with the War of 1812 but a specific KS for that...maybe a campaign pack similar to the starter sets with four/six ships included and specific rules for the lakes combats and some specific terrain. Boxed set $100-120 I'd probably buy that but $100's maybe not.

RichardPF
04-17-2013, 05:24
...
Australian matters are a non-starter there just aren't any! Unless you want to run a campaign of shipping convicts from Britain to Van Diemen's Land (Tasmania) where the only combat is against nature.
...



Hey, Australia was at the heart of one of the most gripping naval battles of our lifetime (as I'm about the same age as you).

It lasted less than two weeks in September of 1983.

AND AUSTRALIA WON!!

Aussie Aussie Aussie, Oi Oi Oi

Berthier
04-17-2013, 05:29
An d i bet if they could have sunk Australia II they would have! Secret weapon of the winged keel, might be worth trying that on a frigate.

7eat51
04-17-2013, 06:45
If a KS is needed to fund a production run, by all means, once the wallet has recovered. If a KS is not needed to fund production, normal retail is fine.

Cmmdre
04-17-2013, 08:48
Bruce some of the costs you reference are already covered because Ares is already a profitable business with acclaimed products. I am not disagreeing with your point that a new product launch costs big bucks. But seeing as how we built the HMS Victory and the USS Constitution with our contributions I could see some of the capital from this KS "helping" new ideas along. :moneygone:

GrouperKicker
04-17-2013, 10:25
I would hope that Ares could provide some support of The War of 1812 via normal wave releases instead of a KS. And I agree... we just wrapped up this KS/Cash Dump - if a KS was planned, then timing would be key in terms of the level of my support.

Just wondering, however, what products would folks like to see (regardless of whether or not it is retail/KS) for 1812? Which ships/classes/maps(?)/accessories would you expect?

DeRuyter
04-17-2013, 11:22
I would hope that Ares could provide some support of The War of 1812 via normal wave releases instead of a KS. And I agree... we just wrapped up this KS/Cash Dump - if a KS was planned, then timing would be key in terms of the level of my support.

Just wondering, however, what products would folks like to see (regardless of whether or not it is retail/KS) for 1812? Which ships/classes/maps(?)/accessories would you expect?


There are some, like me, whose focus is on the War of 1812 anyway. I limited my pledging to this KS because of this. I'd rather spend on the later 18 lbs class frigates and the French 40s as well. I would support an 1812 expansion if that is the correct term, whether it was through KS or retail ship sets. Of course I'd like to see Anglo-Dutch wars also!

As to the ships to expect, you'd need all the smaller rates or unrated ship classes plus the lakers. So, brigs in several classes (Cruzier, USS Niagra), ship-sloops (USS Wasp), several different types of schooners, cutters and singled masted sloops. This is in addition to the post 1800 classes of heavy frigates, which presumably could be part of other ship waves anyway. We can't forget 64 gun SoL (HMS Africa).

Eric

Gaz67
04-17-2013, 12:53
Not this year...

csadn
04-17-2013, 15:49
As to 1812, hmmm,not being US based I don't have the affinity for that fight,

I could point out: I live in the US, but *where* I live is almost entirely uninvolved with that conflict as well.

So I get to be "creative".... >:)

Diamondback
04-17-2013, 21:35
Other than that it's a decade and a half too late, I'd really like to see the Republic of Texas Navy included and the Texan War for Independence...

Coog
04-17-2013, 21:45
Other than that it's a decade and a half too late, I'd really like to see the Republic of Texas Navy included and the Texan War for Independence...

Here's a link to a thread I posted on the naval conflict:

http://sailsofglory.org/showthread.php?401-The-Texas-Navy

Coog
04-17-2013, 22:00
Here's a bit more of the action by the Texas Navy where sail powered ships of the Texas Navy went toe to toe with British built steam powered warships which had British officers and mixed crews of British and Mexican seaman.

http://sailsofglory.org/showthread.php?402-The-Naval-Battle-of-Campeche

Gunner
04-17-2013, 22:14
I voted not sure.
I would much rather see The age of piracy or Triremes (and I would pledge handsomely for both) before the war of 1812.

Wargamer
04-17-2013, 22:41
Concur, not likely. Maybe next year for Pirates of the Caribbean.

Instead of 1812, the Barbary wars would make more sense. Might even come up with marine units :)

Triremes? I was thinking Lepanto, but realize that this system is designed for small actions involving a handful of ships at a time; major fleet actions will require massive table or floor space. So it seems to me, that they could come up with a different time frame each year and add a dozen basic ships to the mix. Of course then you could start what if battles that would be somewhat different. Roman quad vs a xebec?

Diamondback
04-18-2013, 00:50
The other thing is, the bicentennial of most of the other mentioned events has come and gone, while War of 1812 Bicentennial will go into 2015--Ares is probably thinking that for a first expansion because it's closely related to and thus expands the Royal Navy for the Napoleonic Wars, and that a huge historical anniversary tie-in is a once-in-a-lifetime marketing opportunity.

David Manley
04-18-2013, 04:09
As far as the wargaming public is concerned 1812 has come and gone, and the world has moved on. If they wanted to catch an 1812 wave they needed to be doing this a over a year ago as indeed they nearly did)

David Manley
04-18-2013, 04:11
Instead of 1812, the Barbary wars would make more sense. Might even come up with marine units :)

Barbary wars and US frigates already seem to be in the production schedule

Cmmdre
04-18-2013, 07:53
Barbary wars and US frigates already seem to be in the production schedule
Looking forward to this release as well.:happy:

Beowulf03809
04-18-2013, 08:05
Looking forward to this release as well.:happy:

Absolutely! Those will also lend themselves well to some of the educational events I would like to set up. "History through games"

Coog
04-18-2013, 10:46
As far as the wargaming public is concerned 1812 has come and gone, and the world has moved on.

Maybe in the UK, and I can see why, but it is still popular here in the US. Why do you think Ares is producing the Constitution? As said before, the US is their primary market.


If they wanted to catch an 1812 wave they needed to be doing this a over a year ago as indeed they nearly did)

With the 200th anniversary of the bombarbment of Fort McHenry in September 1814 and Francis Scott Key being inspired to write "The Star-Spangled Banner", I think another wave will occur.

Beowulf03809
04-18-2013, 10:56
Sorry, but I'm not sure the only interest in the War of 1812 was the anniversary. Otherwise there should be no interest in the Battle of Trafalgar again for at least two more years ( 210th anniversary which isn't really that interesting anyway ) and the entire market for SGN will fall out in a couple years after the anniversary of the end of the Napoleonic Wars ( 2015 )?

Anniversaries can bring spikes of interest but are hardly the basis for a market IMO.

I must admit that I didn't pay a lot of attention to the naval actions of the 1812 until getting involved over here, but I've really been enjoying learning more of those events since then and it's been getting me very interested in looking forward to those ships and scenarios coming out.

David Manley
04-18-2013, 11:22
I'm not saying there is NO interest, that would clearly be absurd. But the anniversary "bow wave" has been and gone. Avalon Hill made a mint out of tying in their release of WSIM as a "1776 bicentenary" game, releasing it the year before. We weren't that far off being able to do the same here.

David Manley
04-18-2013, 11:50
With the 200th anniversary of the bombarbment of Fort McHenry in September 1814 and Francis Scott Key being inspired to write "The Star-Spangled Banner", I think another wave will occur.

Maybe, but if anyhting more of an aftershock. I'm just going with the mood I'm getting from my US wargaming chums here.

David Manley
04-18-2013, 11:53
Maybe in the UK, and I can see why

Yeah, we'd just about won by this time 200 years ago, plus we were invading France - roll on 7th October :D
:happy::rum::salute:

Coog
04-18-2013, 12:27
Yeah, we'd just about won by this time 200 years ago, plus we were invading France - roll on 7th October :D
:happy::rum::salute:

I'm sure that is what The Honourable Sir Edward Pakenham was thinking.:happy:

David Manley
04-18-2013, 12:33
Just a footnote of history :happy:

David Manley
04-18-2013, 12:37
What might be worth thinking about would be taking the basic system and "resetting" the scale to make a system that worked well for much smaller ships, gunboats etc. I could see that being extremely popular (and having players purchasing vessels in rather large numbers - for frigate actions in 1812 the opportunities for large-multiple sales of each sculpt is pretty low.

Gunner
04-18-2013, 12:50
Gunboats & other unrated vessels are way down on my interest chart, and not worth the trouble of resetting the scale.

David Manley
04-18-2013, 13:18
TBH to give frigate actions justice you really need to reset the scale. And since thats where 1812 sits.....

Coog
04-18-2013, 14:05
And for the fans of pirate actions, that's going to mostly involve small ships.

DeRuyter
04-18-2013, 14:38
And for the fans of pirate actions, that's going to mostly involve small ships.

I concur here. Most of the Barbary xebecs were small ships, as were most pirate ships since they needed to be fast and weatherly. Larger schooners and brigs should not be a problem at the current scale, however smaller ships and gunboats mounting a single gun may be. Something to think about when planning that cutting out scenario.

Eric

7eat51
04-18-2013, 23:09
From a marketing perspective, I would choose pirates over 1812, regardless of anniversary tie-ins. I think the broader public is familiar with pirates and not with 1812. SoG, like WoG, will attract general gamers and not just harder core historical wargamers.

From a personal perspective, I would love an 1812 expansion; however, I would like all types of expansions - Anglo-Dutch, Russian-Swedish, Spanish, etc.

Coog
04-18-2013, 23:45
From a marketing perspective, I would choose pirates over 1812, regardless of anniversary tie-ins. I think the broader public is familiar with pirates and not with 1812. SoG, like WoG, will attract general gamers and not just harder core historical wargamers.

Sadly your right. And not historical pirates. The public prefers Johnny Depp and "Pirates of the Caribbean" over Russell Crowe and "Master and Comander." Ares may should focus on phantom ships with ghost crews instead of HMS Surprise. That's where the real market is.:erk:

7eat51
04-18-2013, 23:48
The public prefers Johnny Depp and "Pirates of the Caribbean" over Russell Crowe and "Master and Comander." Ares may should focus on phantom ships with ghost crews instead of HMS Surprise. That's where the real market is.:erk:

Are we nerds, or has Western Civilization died?

Cmmdre
04-18-2013, 23:53
Say it ain't so! I know as well as the two of you that you are correct but history has always been made by those who stand apart from the rest. :steer:

Gunner
04-19-2013, 00:12
Sadly your right. And not historical pirates. The public prefers Johnny Depp and "Pirates of the Caribbean" over Russell Crowe and "Master and Comander." Ares may should focus on phantom ships with ghost crews instead of HMS Surprise. That's where the real market is.:erk:

I hope those are your thoughts and not Ares.

Coog
04-19-2013, 00:15
Are we nerds, or has Western Civilization died?

Naw, not nerds. I've seen the hordes of nerds in game stores and they aren't playing historical war games! They can tell you about every aspect of many fantasy lands but not hardly anything about history or geography. And they are the intelligent ones in our society. Western Civilization is dying. Were not nerds, just Neanderthals.

Cmmdre
04-19-2013, 00:18
Naw, not nerds. I've seen the hordes of nerds in game stores and they aren't playing historical war games! They can tell you about every aspect of many fantasy lands but not hardly anything about history or geography. And they are the intelligent ones in our society. Western Civilization is dying. Were not nerds, just Neanderthals.

Actually we're ahead of the coming trend. I've got a keen sense for these things. :hmmm:

Gunner
04-19-2013, 01:04
"Naw, not nerds. I've seen the hordes of nerds in game stores and they aren't playing historical war games! They can tell you about every aspect of many fantasy lands but not hardly anything about history or geography. And they are the intelligent ones in our society. Western Civilization is dying. Were not nerds, just Neanderthals."



True observations and words.

Diamondback
04-19-2013, 01:20
No, we're just the ones who see what comes when well-intentioned and intelligent but short-sighted people who don't know how to see the next miles down the road take the reigns--and they don't see that because they refuse to read the roadmap of history.

In short, we're the ones in our own small way fighting to keep the torch of enlightenment burning in an ever-dimming world... and sadly, I expect it to only get worse rather than better. Would you believe there are people in the generations after mine who think James Bond is new and Daniel Craig is the first actor to play him? (And to many of us who grew up on Connery and even MOORE, and the original Fleming novels, the casting of Craig was an Act of HERESY...)

Kind of like if someone had tried to evacuate the most important knowledge from the Library of Alexandria and preserve it when the barbarians (and I use that term by action, regardless of religion) at various times sacked and ultimately destroyed it...

Gunner
04-19-2013, 01:37
I hate to say it but, Craig plays James Bond like Ian Fleming describes him in his books.
What Hollywood doesn't seem to get, it was the humor of Connery, Moore, Brosnan & the rest is what made 007 such a great hit. Craig just doesn't have it.

Diamondback
04-19-2013, 04:08
True, and the next closest to text canon was Dalton--but compared to the original tet-on-page, in many ways the Connery films were an IMPROVEMENT... and while Moore's The Man With The Golden Gun got a little out-there with the title weapon and some of its tech (in the book Scaramanga had a gold-plated Colt .45), at least IT you could discuss in polite society unlike most of the source novel. (Seriously, with the prevalent obscenity statutes at time of publication, it's a wonder that one ever saw print...)

But we're :OFF-TOPIC: now...

Berthier
04-19-2013, 04:10
Sadly your right. And not historical pirates. The public prefers Johnny Depp and "Pirates of the Caribbean" over Russell Crowe and "Master and Comander." Ares may should focus on phantom ships with ghost crews instead of HMS Surprise. That's where the real market is.:erk:

Edward Scissorhands vs The Gladiator. See it at a theatre near you next holiday season.

Diamondback
04-19-2013, 04:15
THAT whackjob? The REAL captain of the Black Pearl was Sir Henry Morgan...

For a while, anyway. LOL

OmegaLazarus
04-19-2013, 14:57
NO, I haven't even got the spoils of my last KS for this system. WHy would I do it again.

pward
04-19-2013, 15:01
I would want to see 1812 ships as expansion packs, but if the only way to get them is through a KS or if the KS 1812 pieces are going to be exclusives, then I would participate in it... just don't see the need for them to market the expansion this way.

csadn
04-19-2013, 16:12
THAT whackjob? The REAL captain of the Black Pearl was Sir Henry Morgan...

http://www.innovatoys.com/metal-works/black-pearl-model/6109

I need to get some pics of my copy....

RichardPF
04-20-2013, 03:16
From a marketing perspective, I would choose pirates over 1812, regardless of anniversary tie-ins. I think the broader public is familiar with pirates and not with 1812. SoG, like WoG, will attract general gamers and not just harder core historical wargamers.

From a personal perspective, I would love an 1812 expansion; however, I would like all types of expansions - Anglo-Dutch, Russian-Swedish, Spanish, etc.

I would guess that Ares is thinking that since the majority of the SGN business (and maybe all of their business) is coming from the US, and the closest cronological war to the Napoleonic era involving the US was the war of 1812, that should be their next stop.

While I will no doubt be a buyer of the 1812 ships, I would be a more enthusiastic buyer of the ships of Henry Morgan, William Kidd, Bartholomew Roberts, and Edward Teach.

In that regard, I think that to do the Black Pearl would cost more money in licensing fees than Ares could ever, to pardon the expression, swing.
It would also be a ship for which I, with my anachronistic tendencies, would have no interest.

Diamondback
04-20-2013, 03:19
Right, Bruce--I was thinking of Morgan's Pearl, which the overfamed rodent can't claim copyright on, as opposed to the fictional one built on an oil-rig support vessel... LOL

RichardPF
04-20-2013, 06:00
Right, Bruce--I was thinking of Morgan's Pearl, which the overfamed rodent can't claim copyright on, as opposed to the fictional one built on an oil-rig support vessel... LOL

If Disney will go after the Ormond Street children's hospital...

7eat51
04-20-2013, 12:17
I would guess that Ares is thinking that since the majority of the SGN business (and maybe all of their business) is coming from the US, and the closest cronological war to the Napoleonic era involving the US was the war of 1812, that should be their next stop.

While I will no doubt be a buyer of the 1812 ships, I would be a more enthusiastic buyer of the ships of Henry Morgan, William Kidd, Bartholomew Roberts, and Edward Teach.

In that regard, I think that to do the Black Pearl would cost more money in licensing fees than Ares could ever, to pardon the expression, swing.
It would also be a ship for which I, with my anachronistic tendencies, would have no interest.

As a new game, I would advise Ares to start with the broadest appealing lines. The last thing any of us need is for ships to sit on store shelves. There is a large box of WWII WoW planes at our FLGS. I have offered to buy and send them worldwide to Aerodrome members, and the store owner gave me a deal at $7 per plane. Only a half-dozen folks requested any, and most were the WWI planes or two models of WWII fighters. The rest are sitting at the store collecting dust. Furthermore, once the bug bites, general players might have more inclination to learn and care about other AoS historical periods.

I, too, am out on any fantasy-related ships. I just saw a tactical WWII kickstarter that has a horror-related stretch goal module. I really don't want to blend genres.

RichardPF
04-20-2013, 13:46
As a new game, I would advise Ares to start with the broadest appealing lines. The last thing any of us need is for ships to sit on store shelves. There is a large box of WWII WoW planes at our FLGS. I have offered to buy and send them worldwide to Aerodrome members, and the store owner gave me a deal at $7 per plane. Only a half-dozen folks requested any, and most were the WWI planes or two models of WWII fighters. The rest are sitting at the store collecting dust. Furthermore, once the bug bites, general players might have more inclination to learn and care about other AoS historical periods.

I, too, am out on any fantasy-related ships. I just saw a tactical WWII kickstarter that has a horror-related stretch goal module. I really don't want to blend genres.

Perhaps one of the reasons that I have never "warmed up" to the WWII planes is that it seems like whoever has been selecting the planes has gone out of their way to pick obscure low production and low impact planes in order to represent as many nations as possible.
If it was my decision, Me 109's, FW190's, Spitfires, Hurricanes, Mustangs, Corsairs, P38's, and Zeros would always be in productions. Producing anything else would be on a once in a great while basis in low numbers aimed at the collector of obscura (Fiat and Gloster WWII biplanes? What are they thinking?).
The WWI release selection may be tending that way as well (look at what is in Series 5 and the upcoming Series 6 and then wonder about the D7 rerelease).

Broadening the product line and selection is fine, but I think that if the first tier craft (of any line) go out of production and all that a new player trying to get involved can do is buy odd ball fringe items or pay $30 - $60 per item on eBay for old stock they will likely move along to something else.

OK, Rant over...

7eat51
04-20-2013, 14:07
Broadening the product line and selection is fine, but I think that if the first tier craft (of any line) go out of production and all that a new player trying to get involved can do is buy odd ball fringe items or pay $30 - $60 per item on eBay for old stock they will likely move along to something else.

I fully agree. It is hard to keep a business afloat, let alone grow it, without positive cash flow. Keep, as you say, "first tier" ships in production, and add to that limited runs of other ships. I think activity on the Aerodrome would support this. Many of the planes I see folks building on there are additional numbers of first tier planes they already have, but which Ares does not currently produce, for example Fokker D.VIIs. As a newbie myself, I have limited numbers of key aircraft because they are not in production, and I am not going to spend the money that folks are asking for them. I dislike the thought of having to build models of key planes/ships to play a game that already comes with its own minis. I can fully support building models of obscure ones, or building models just because I want to, for enjoyment's sake.

RichardPF
04-20-2013, 15:15
I fully agree. It is hard to keep a business afloat, let alone grow it, without positive cash flow. Keep, as you say, "first tier" ships in production, and add to that limited runs of other ships. I think activity on the Aerodrome would support this. Many of the planes I see folks building on there are additional numbers of first tier planes they already have, but which Ares does not currently produce, for example Fokker D.VIIs. As a newbie myself, I have limited numbers of key aircraft because they are not in production, and I am not going to spend the money that folks are asking for them. I dislike the thought of having to build models of key planes/ships to play a game that already comes with its own minis. I can fully support building models of obscure ones, or building models just because I want to, for enjoyment's sake.


Yes, I guess I just had a flash of a time somewhere in the future where the only ships available from Ares in current release were Danish, Russian, and Cornish Luggers.

It would seem to me that secondary/alternative suppliers, like Shapeways and $60 Goering D7's on eBay in this case, only come about when there is a significant market need that is not met by the franchise holder.

pward
04-20-2013, 15:21
Right, Bruce--I was thinking of Morgan's Pearl, which the overfamed rodent can't claim copyright on, as opposed to the fictional one built on an oil-rig support vessel... LOL

"overfamed rodent..." LOL

Wargamer
04-20-2013, 16:00
Perhaps one of the reasons that I have never "warmed up" to the WWII planes is that it seems like whoever has been selecting the planes has gone out of their way to pick obscure low production and low impact planes in order to represent as many nations as possible.
If it was my decision, Me 109's, FW190's, Spitfires, Hurricanes, Mustangs, Corsairs, P38's, and Zeros would always be in productions. Producing anything else would be on a once in a great while basis in low numbers aimed at the collector of obscura (Fiat and Gloster WWII biplanes? What are they thinking?)
OK, Rant over...

Well that may have some of it, but a large percentage of gamers, imho, declined the whole ww2 version of wings based on the switched scale. Looking at the basis of their rationale on switching from 144 to 200 scale, I would expect that their early jets would be about 1/600 and the newest jets around 1/1200 or 1/2400 scale. Sorry way too many people are buying the miniatures to game with and want them to look good on the shelf, which for most display types want the same scale for a given type - airplane, ship whatever. If Sails switches scales from 1000 to something else because they go to triremes or steam, it would be a no sale on my part.

csadn
04-20-2013, 20:09
If it was my decision, Me 109's, FW190's, Spitfires, Hurricanes, Mustangs, Corsairs, P38's, and Zeros would always be in productions. Producing anything else would be on a once in a great while basis in low numbers aimed at the collector of obscura (Fiat and Gloster WWII biplanes? What are they thinking?).

Probably "Everyone and his dog makes those -- the market's saturated with cheap minis of the well-known stuff; the only chance of selling our stuff is to go places the Big Guys won't". It's been argued before.

Gunner
04-20-2013, 21:36
Probably "Everyone and his dog makes those -- the market's saturated with cheap minis of the well-known stuff; the only chance of selling our stuff is to go places the Big Guys won't". It's been argued before.

Is that why there still sitting on shelves, and on sale by so many retailers?
I for one don't understand why Corsairs or even PZL 11's (were WWII started) were not put out. Just to name a few.

csadn
04-21-2013, 14:49
Is that why there still sitting on shelves, and on sale by so many retailers?

Yes -- at discounts which make me wonder how'n'ell they're staying in business. (And in some cases, I've seen the same models sitting on the same shelves for *years*.)

Chanfan
04-22-2013, 16:13
I'll have to reserve judgement until I get a chance to play this Kickstarter. One at a time at this price!

But the period is interesting enough, sure.

CHolgren
04-24-2013, 13:40
I voted not sure.
I would much rather see The age of piracy or Triremes (and I would pledge handsomely for both) before the war of 1812.

I'm with Ed. I'd like earlier not later.

CHolgren
04-25-2013, 06:57
I voted not sure.
I would much rather see The age of piracy or Triremes (and I would pledge handsomely for both) before the war of 1812.

Ed, in looking for triremes have you come across www.romanseas.com? They have papercraft models you can buy, print and build. They have a complete world you can make, if you have the time and inclination.

7eat51
04-25-2013, 09:01
I voted not sure.
I would much rather see The age of piracy or Triremes (and I would pledge handsomely for both) before the war of 1812.

Ed, have you ever played War Galley by GMT? I recently picked it up. You can look at a set of living rules here: http://www.gmtgames.com/p-168-war-galley.aspx


Ed, in looking for triremes have you come across www.romanseas.com? They have papercraft models you can buy, print and build. They have a complete world you can make, if you have the time and inclination.

Thanks for the link Cory. The minis are rather nice. I hear the sound of more money fluttering away in the not-too-distant future.

HMS Lydia
04-25-2013, 10:21
Cool, more ships!

Gunner
04-25-2013, 15:49
Ed, in looking for triremes have you come across www.romanseas.com? They have papercraft models you can buy, print and build. They have a complete world you can make, if you have the time and inclination.

No, I haven't seen it. And the more I think about it, due to the large scale of most battles I'm not sure Ares could make the ships and cards small enough to portray the battles. If anyone has thoughts on how this could be done, I'd love to hear about it.

David Manley
04-25-2013, 16:36
No, I haven't seen it. And the more I think about it, due to the large scale of most battles I'm not sure Ares could make the ships and cards small enough to portray the battles. If anyone has thoughts on how this could be done, I'd love to hear about it.

I've written some fast play rules for small actions and fleet actions. If anyone wants a copy PM me with your email addie

Gunner
04-25-2013, 18:30
Thanks Dave. PM sent.

kduke42
04-26-2013, 16:17
Getting back to the original question, I would not be quick to pledge 1812. Like others, I want to spend some time with this system before I'd invest even more in it.

But the idea of the lake battles, in particular, seems interesting, and might be more attuned to the game scale and structure. Folks who are talking Trafalgar-- or even the Nile-- will, I think, find things very difficult.

I've gotten to demo some very "big" WoW sessions-- but that has meant, at most, 12 players/planes on the board at the same time. As much fun as the 'target rich environment' is, things do slow down. From what I can see of the system for SoG, playing 6 on 6 will take a lot more time.

So something like a lake battle, with a limited number of ships and many of those having very few guns, might move faster and be more interesting in the long run.

As for the plane/release discussion... I also have to shake my head in concern. I've been eager to get the Me110 to flesh out the "Battle of Britain" that we couldn't quite do with the first 2 series, but the Beaufighter has such limited value in dog-fighting (be woe to anyone who gets in front of it) that I doubt I'll ever get one. The biplanes also seem a very odd release at this time.
The "series 3" releases to relaunch the WoG system have sparked a lot of "say what?" when folks see the planes. The fact it's impossible to use the four planes for anything remotely historical against each other is not a big seller... WW1 has been more interesting and I grasp that Ares was likely trapped into Nexus' production pipeline, which is why their first WW1 releases were big bombers, followed by early war. I'm glad to see Series 1 return, but Series 6... given the span of use between the Sop Triplane and the SS D-3... oh my. The tripe is too new for early war-- too old for the Series 1 re-releases...or indeed, anything except the Series 3 releases and the Whale, none of which they should assume their buyers own. At least the Aviatik and some of the Hanroits can reasonably fight one another. And not having any 2-seaters for new customers to buy, for probably at least a year to come... makes things look very good for ebay resellers but I don't follow the business logic.

I think Ares feels trapped between supporting original Nexus customers (which most Aerodrome folks probably are) and attracting new business, but I don't follow much how they are really being successful with either.

Sorry-- I'll revert back to talking only ships on the ship forum. Ares gets to make a totally new start here and I look forward to seeing how they play it.

Coog
04-26-2013, 16:35
Models for the War of 1812 would actually span a period and theaters beyond the war itself. The American ships would also cover the Quasi War and the Barbary Wars as well as the War of 1812. The British ships would also be used against the French. In fact HMS Guerriere and HMS Java were originally French ships and would provide models for their French sisters. Quite a few battles outside the War of 1812 could be fought.

kduke42
04-26-2013, 17:01
That's all good, and I think encouraging things like frigate vs frigate battles will be good for the system.

But I'll try all that for awhile before getting deeper involved.

Has anyone figured out how they plan on storing/transporting this stuff?

csadn
04-26-2013, 17:10
Has anyone figured out how they plan on storing/transporting this stuff?

Same way I move the airplanes -- in their original packaging. What I'm trying to figure out is some way to replace the plastic inserts with foam.

7eat51
04-26-2013, 17:24
Welcome aboard Kevin. When you have a minute, head on over to the Welcome Aboard forum and introduce yourself. Folks will glad to meet you.
http://sailsofglory.org/forumdisplay.php?5-Welcome-Aboard

Kind of hard to say about transportation until ships and extras are in hand. I still don't have a good feel for what they will be like. I am currently figuring out how to do WGF components. With an ever growing collection ...

Diamondback
04-27-2013, 02:19
There's very little from 1812 that DIDN'T see service in the Napoleonic Wars first--in fact, the Leda-class frigates that were popular for North American squadron assignments were outwardly almost direct copies of the French Hebe-class from Wave 2, so that's an immediate reprint that can also expand the pool for the Nappy fans... also, there were a lot of British ships from the American Revolutionary War still in service so that's another "Cheap Pop" expansion. RDM has already mentioned thinking about ideas for other time periods...

Oars of Glory at the Battle of Salamis or in the Punic Wars? LOL

HMS Lydia
04-27-2013, 09:38
Coog and Diamondback hit the nail on the head. The War of 1812 is Napoleonic. Part of what set the war off was other nations navys impressing US seamen into to fight the war in Europe. Which was going on everywhere except the Pacific, and due to Spanish holding there were even some skirmishes in that far off ocean.

Gunner
04-27-2013, 18:47
Oars of Glory

Great name for the Trireme series.

Coog
04-27-2013, 18:54
Great name for the Trireme series.

There will have to be background CD for the series. Oars splashing in the water, a drum beating out the rowing cadence, and of course...the cracking of a whip.:erk:

Gunner
04-27-2013, 19:05
Maybe we could lift & edit it from Ben Hur.

Coog
04-27-2013, 19:39
Maybe we could lift & edit it from Ben Hur.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ax7wcShvrus

Gunner
04-27-2013, 20:08
My arms ache just watching it. A couple of shots of the ships wouldn't hurt. Maybe from Cleopatra also.
Ya I know, you just can't please some people.

Capn Duff
10-20-2013, 07:38
This one is not for me

David Manley
10-22-2013, 22:49
FWIW I tried out a very simple galley variant and it worked extremely well. Still lots of development needed if I get the time but as and when I tet it advanced enough I shall post it here.

John Paul
01-27-2014, 23:55
It would be far to difficult for me to pass up on anything dealing with the War of 1812!!

I'd probably start another war just to make sure they make ships for the period!! :beer:

Terry Smith
01-28-2014, 17:31
I would buy ships for the War of 1812, especially if they cover the battles on Lakes Ontario, Erie, and Champlain. I would buy these however they are produce: by KS or normal distribution channels.

mdavis41
03-23-2014, 16:33
I'm enjoying SoG so much, I think I'd be up for a new KS. I like the idea of Great Lakes small ship actions as well as the famous deep water frigate battles. Could this be part of a larger KS campaign? 1812, pus War of the Austrian Succession/ Seven Years War? I'd also like to see 1/1000 scale official "cutting out" action rules and maybe some 3-D terrain along the lines of Langton Miniatures work. I was expecting something different however. I'm not spreading rumors as I don't think there is anything being said about this, but I'd like to see a playable Amercan Civil War naval variant with both blue water and riverine actions, and dare I hope, a very playable WW1 naval game. I hope Ares has deep pockets but if they need another KS to take them forward, this time I will participate.

Diamondback
03-23-2014, 18:51
Personally, my advice to Ares would be to use Kickstarters sparingly in light of them being a direct competition with Brick & Mortar--maybe as a quick shot for cash-flows only or to get capital built up for launching new lines, and I'd definitely suggest that the Kickstarter Pledge rewards should include things unavailable anywhere else.

While I wouldn't buy more of them, I for one would be OK with the four Kickstarter ships being offered again as part of a new Kickstarter campaign, as long as they STAY only available when Ares runs a Kickstarter and the re-runs are well publicized, perhaps even having a "Second Run", "Third Run", etc note added to the product ID sticker.

Gunner
03-23-2014, 19:38
While I wouldn't buy more of them, I for one would be OK with the four Kickstarter ships being offered again as part of a new Kickstarter campaign, as long as they STAY only available when Ares runs a Kickstarter and the re-runs are well publicized, perhaps even having a "Second Run", "Third Run", etc note added to the product ID sticker.

If Ares did that it would ruin their credibility. They did say KS participants only. I for one would never believe them again.

Diamondback
03-23-2014, 19:56
Ed, that'd still be Kickstarter participants... there's a difference between "Only Available Through Kickstarter" and "Only Available Through THIS Kickstarter". Besides, they did say that it was that specific combo of sculpt, stats, paint AND package that was the exclusive... which leaves TONS of Lawyer Room.

I'm not saying they SHOULD, just that from certain interpretations of their wording they COULD and I for one would not hold it against them as long as the LETTER of previous statements was adhered to--and as long as there was some note on the package and maybe the card/log that could be clearly differentiated from our Day One Specials.

Then again, my perspective is a little different and just may be kinda skewed, having been involved with lots of games where I didn't even have any way to know they existed pre-2nd or 3rd set and seen lots of "what're YOU griping about? I got MINE so bleep you, Johnny-come-lately" attitudes through those years and games, sometimes severe enough to make me drop out completely. And if I'd been able to come up with a few hundred bucks more, I might've bought a few extra exclusives to set aside and cut rookies a break on later...

Gunner
03-23-2014, 20:43
Maybe it's just me. I was brought up to think that when you said you would do something, you do it.
The promise of exclusives is what brought many people & $$ into the KS. I contributed because I didn't want to miss those four ships.
Their use of the molds for any other ship of the same class is up to them as long as they don't use the same name or color scheme.
What people missed out on is just a part of life. Help your friends, but don't support them.

Diamondback
03-23-2014, 20:54
Ed, the other thing is I also had to take several law classes as part of my abandoned-on-completion Business major, so I know very well how to parse the words in a document. Think of it as like a Marine enlistment contract that promises you training in aviation--you may end up a line grunt in a rifle platoon in Cuba or Korea, but they don't even have to send you to flight school because as long as they send you to some school involving airframe repair you've received "training for a career in aviation" and they've fullfilled their end of the bargain, so your ass belongs to the Corps for the duration of your enlistment contract.

EDIT: I just had another devious thought about something Ares could pull and stay within the letter of the Kickstarter offering's terms...

Given that the KS terms were about each KS exclusive ship-pack as a "package deal", they could also split the Side 1 and Side 2 of each KS ship and pair them up with a new counterpart--example, Fougueux with a new Side 2 and Redoutable with a new Side 1, which means new arrivals have four ships to buy in the reprint while completionists who were in from square one only need one of each.

I'm not advocating it myself, but I could see their lawyers telling them they could do it without breaching the *letter* of the KS terms. (Now, the *spirit* of 'em, you know and I know it's a clear End Run... but I'm just trying to read things like a lawyer might and see what kind of cards they could plausibly have up their sleeves.)

Nightmoss
07-03-2014, 20:37
The subject of the Humphreys frigates mentioned in another thread brought me back to this thread, which was rather enjoyable re-reading I'll admit. So, knowing that fairly soon we'll be seeing a US frigate on the game table I'm wondering if Ares will address a War of 1812 set of ships or stick with the British and French focus for another year or two (whether Kickstarter or not)?

What might be the balance to one US frigate (Constitution) and one US sloop (Thorn/Atalanta) versus all the other ships from wave 1 and 2? Smaller ships for the Great Lakes has been discussed above, but I'm wondering if we'll see any US SOL's like the USS Independence or USS Washington? I realize these ships didn't see glorious historical action, but they served for years on station in the Mediterranean and elsewhere.

I honestly don't expect Ares to do this so which of the existing ships could one possibly modify on a ship log to fill in as a US SOL (keeping in mind this is from a modelers perspective, not a naval historian or architects)?

What really started this 'speculation' was my viewing of some of the great photos and illustrations from the "Old Navy" section of http://www.navsource.org. After looking at the USS Constitution images I then found all these other ships I never knew of, or recall reading any reference to. I guess that shows how much the six frigates dominated history and public awareness?

1040710408

Bligh
06-24-2015, 02:59
Much as I would like to see a range of U.S. ships, it would be a few too many for me to find room for.
My priority has to be filling the gaps in my present fleets.
After that, who knows?
Rob.

7eat51
06-24-2015, 03:39
With the recent conversations, this is a "timely" poll to revisit.

I would like some of the smaller ships to do lake battles, e.g. Battle of Lake Erie. If such a KS set was launched, I would definitely support it.

Naharaht
06-24-2015, 05:11
I would be happy to see some more U.S. ships.

Killick
09-25-2017, 22:58
I would be happy to see some more U.S. ships.

Likewise!

Bligh
09-26-2017, 03:15
Well what a difference a couple of years and reading two books about the American Navy can make.
I am certainly up for a small American fleet now!

Rob.

Diamondback
10-01-2017, 23:38
If we can get a Peacock and a Cruizer sculpt, those give us some of the bigger unrated Lakers too. Most of the rest both up and down are gonna be challenges to shoehorn in, though, and we've already discussed my idea of doing the too-smalls as two-per-base pieces integrally cast with the top-plate. (I'm thinking a combined log, where each ship on the base has independent fire/repair actions, damage, etc. Left half is Ship 1, right Ship 2.)

Bligh
10-02-2017, 03:57
Sounds a great idea to me DB. I am just reading a series of novels about the War of 1812 from the American perspective, and it has awakened an interest in the period for me. I quite like the idea of pitting myself against the might of the British Navy for a change.
Rob.

Diamondback
10-02-2017, 04:32
Thinking such an approach would probably be six boxes or less per ship (middle box each row marked as a divider), probably gunnery of 1-1-1 tops to 0-1-0, maybe 1 Musketry and 1-2 Crew Actions.

Something like, (this is a representational example not a serious Stat Committee proposal)

HMS Sir Sidney SmithBur:2Veer:7XHMS Lord BeresfordBur:2Veer:7
12-gun lake schoonerBox 123456X12-gun lake schoonerBox 123456
Gun1-1-11-1-10-1-10-1-00-1-0noneXGun1-1-11-1-10-1-10-1-00-1-0none
Crew221111X[tr]Crew221111
Musketry111111X[tr]Musketry111111



Thinking is, damage gets applied to whichever ship on the base (one top left, other bottom right, or top right/bottom left, whichever) is closer to the firing ship. These guys would only fire at B-range--high maneuverability, middling speed, low firepower, broader fire arcs, possible immunity or significant reduction of grounding in Shoals, subject to Weather damage from wind alone unlike bigger ships, basically shallow-water specialists otherwise only useful for Zerg Rushing.

Fire arc notes: a Top Left ship would have its starboard stern quarter blocked for firing until the Bottom Right ship is destroyed but be able to shoot in any other direction; similarly the Bottom Right ship would be unable to fire to Port Bow quarter.

David Manley
10-02-2017, 11:42
probably gunnery of 1-1-1 tops to 0-1-0, maybe 1 Musketry and 1-2 Crew Actions.

TBH thats all a bit pointless. Change the stat range for small craft actions. The alternative gives a rather boring , stale and "samey" experience

Wentworth
08-03-2018, 17:42
I REALLY cannot overstate how much I would like to see this happen -- earlier this year I emailed Ares and suggested in their next release they should include the USS Essex and the HMS Shannon as a step in this direction. I sincerely hope they do not ignore the substantial North American market for War of 1812 ships.

Bligh
08-04-2018, 13:03
Despite the statement I made about never supporting another Kickstarter, after the Tripods farce, I would still support my American cousins if it meant them getting a fair crack of the whip re US naval units.
Rob.

Capn Duff
08-05-2018, 17:01
Nope, sorry such a kickstarter would not interest myself in the slightest.
Especially as the sizes we are talking about may suffer the same size debate as waves three and four.
So nope afraid not for me, still want some Spanish 80s

Bligh
08-06-2018, 01:56
Do you think they could get the Spanish 80s to the right scale Chris?
Rob.

Capn Duff
08-06-2018, 02:19
To be honest, nope

Ferrante
11-07-2018, 13:09
I prefer some expansion about pírate age , or more about Spanish Main era
But not about 1812