On this day 12 April - The Battle of the Saintes

[7eat51]

On the 12th of April 1782, British and French fleets fought the Battle of the Saintes in the West Indies. The British, under the command of Admiral Sir George Rodney, pursued the French, under the command of François-Joseph Paul, marquis de Grasse Tilly, comte de Grasse, as the French were en route to capture British Jamaica. On the 9th of April, de Grasse sent his convoy toward Guadeloupe where it was intercepted by part of the Rodney’s fleet. On the 12th of April, the French sought to protect one of its ships, the Zélé (74), that was damaged on the 9th and was currently pursued by four British ships. Admiral Rodney responded by signaling for his ships to form a line. De Grasse followed suit. As the two fleets engaged each other in line battle, the wind shifted enabling Rodney’s flagship, the HMS Formidable (98), and several other British ships to break the French line. This move put the French into disarray, splitting the line into two separate formations. The British were able to inflict heavy damage on several French ships including de Grasse’s flagship, the Ville de Paris (104). As the French disengaged and fled, de Grasse surrendered, and was taken to England where he, subsequently, played a minor role in the negotiations that resulted in the Treaty of Paris and the end of the American War of Independence.

George Brydges Rodney:

3480

François-Joseph Paul, marquis de Grasse Tilly, comte de Grasse:

3479

The Battle:

3476

3477

The Flagships Battle:

3478

The Ville de Paris:

3475

The Surrender:

3481


For information on today’s event:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Saintes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comte_de_Grasse
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Rodney

[Beowulf03809]

There we go...now we're back to making me want big fleets with lots of First and Second Rate ships. Get back to the sloops and frigates before I go broke in advance.

[Cmmdre]

Excellent post Eric. Goes to show you precisely why 9 out of 10 members choose English over French. Not trying to bash the French just look at the polling.

[7eat51]

Excellent post Eric. Goes to show you precisely why 9 out of 10 members choose English over French. Not trying to bash the French just look at the polling.

Thank you Paul.

I have begun to notice when doing these daily events, that ones which include French actions often have the French losing. I don't know if that is because of the information sources I have been using, or if the French navy ran a string of bad luck, or if there was something deficient with the ships or commanders. It definitely has me curious.

As has been eloquently pointed out to me in another thread, the U.S. owes a debt of gratitude to France. So even in events like today's, all I can say is "Merci!"

[Coog]

Thank you Paul.

I have begun to notice when doing these daily events, that ones which include French actions often have the French losing. I don't know if that is because of the information sources I have been using, or if the French navy ran a string of bad luck, or if there was something deficient with the ships or commanders. It definitely has me curious.

The French did take quite a beating at the hands of the British. If you haven't seen it yet, you may be interested in this thread:

http://sailsofglory.org/showthread.php?381-Notable-French-Ships-In-the-British-Navy&highlight=notable

[7eat51]

Thanks Bobby. Great thread!

[Berthier]

[QUOTE=7eat51;10346 I have begun to notice when doing these daily events, that ones which include French actions often have the French losing. I don't know if that is because of the information sources I have been using, or if the French navy ran a string of bad luck, or if there was something deficient with the ships or commanders. It definitely has me curious. [/QUOTE]

Not your sources sadly Eric, just the historical facts. The French were comprehensively beaten in so many engagements for various reasons- loss of the officer corps during the revolution, lack of opportunity to get to sea to gain experience, a growing sense of inferiority to the British as the Revolutionary-Napoleonic period progressed, drainage of manpower to the army as Napoleon's rule declined (1812-15) onshore winds for most of the French Atlantic ports making it harder to get to sea undetected, a tactical system that favoured firing at sails and masts to slow down/disable an enemy but compromised by the poor French gunnery compared to the British who could pound the French ships to submission with great skill.

There were some brilliant French commanders and they had many fine ships, so fine they usually went straight into the British navy when captured, and the French had their successes just not that many sadly.

[7eat51]

Very helpful, and a bit reassuring, summary Daniel.

[csadn]

I have begun to notice when doing these daily events, that ones which include French actions often have the French losing. I don't know if that is because of the information sources I have been using, or if the French navy ran a string of bad luck, or if there was something deficient with the ships or commanders. It definitely has me curious.

Short version: France's Navy's officer corps was almost-entirely Aristos (the only people with the money to afford all the clag which came with being an officer in those days, to include paying for education) -- the same people who almost-entirely either fled the Revolution, or were killed by it. At a stroke, the Revolutionaries destroyed the French Navy's "institutional knowledge" and traditions; it takes years, if not decades, to build those; and most of that time has to be in "blue water", actually sailing, fighting, and generally "getting sea legs". When Britain set up its blockade, it ensured French sailors would rarely, if ever, get the experience needed, and thus ensured the French Revolutionary Navy would never be the threat it had been during the Seven Years' War and American Revolution periods.

That said: Compare British performance in ship-of-the-line battles during this period with British performance in smaller-ship actions -- in the latter, the British still win most of the fights, but the French do manage to slip in a victory here and there. There Is A Reason For This: Britain used its smaller ships as "on-the-job training" for sailors, so British and French small-ship crews were not as divided in experience level as the larger ships were; this meant French crews could (and did) occasionally win one. (N.A. M. Rodger's _The Command Of The Ocean_ covers this.)

[7eat51]

Chris, this is similar to companies hastily retiring older employees - loss of significant knowledge.

Loss of tradition is often accompanied by loss of effectiveness - traditions developed for reasons not readily apparent to the uninitiated.

Thanks for your thoughts.

[Berthier]

Chris, this is similar to companies hastily retiring older employees - loss of significant knowledge.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Similar except retirement here meant the guillotine or exile:erk:

[csadn]

Similar except retirement here meant the guillotine or exile:erk:

Well, in some circles, being fired is referred to as "getting axed"....

[7eat51]

I read an interesting statistic yesterday in the book Six Frigates (for a review http://sailsofglory.org/showthread.php?555-Six-Frigates):

From 1793 to 1815, the British lost 17 frigates to the French, nine of which were recaptured, whereas the French lost 229 frigates.

[GreenLaborMike]

I read an interesting statistic yesterday in the book Six Frigates (for a review http://sailsofglory.org/showthread.php?555-Six-Frigates):

From 1793 to 1815, the British lost 17 frigates to the French, nine of which were recaptured, whereas the French lost 229 frigates.

I read that too, and my immediate thought was "Which 17? The captains of those ships must have been held in contempt by their contemporaries."

I had a corollary thought that was not answered in Six Frigates - how many british warships were sunk by the French in the same period? I think that trivia is here somewhere on this site, but I have no idea how to track it down.

[7eat51]

I just started the book. The author writes in an engaging style. I wish history was like this when I was in school.

Without knowing the facts, it is hard to know about contempt. I imagine this would be truer in the case of duels.

I will keep my eye open for your question. I am sure someone here probably has a good answer.

[csadn]

I had a corollary thought that was not answered in Six Frigates - how many british warships were sunk by the French in the same period? I think that trivia is here somewhere on this site, but I have no idea how to track it down.

Not many, but it did happen -- IIRC, word of Nelson's victory at Aboukir was delayed in reaching Britain because the ship sent with the dispatches was subsequently taken by the French ships which had managed to escape the MCF in the first place....