Results 1 to 22 of 22

Thread: Ball and Chain and Grapeshot. When do you use it?

  1. #1
    Landsman
    Belgium

    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Location
    Brussels
    Log Entries
    6
    Name
    Wim

    Default Ball and Chain and Grapeshot. When do you use it?

    Hello,

    I wonder if other people often use other ammunition than the regular round ball.

    I've found only one real good use for them so far, and that's when you're fighting with smaller, more agile ships against bigger ones.
    With agile ships against less agile ones, you can more easily manoeuvre into the right position to fire your Ball and Chain without taking a full broadside. This can help you to take out some masts to further give you a manoeuvre advantage over the less agile ship(s).
    With lesser guns against a high burden ship, crew boxes fill out faster than hull boxes, so grape shots can finish off the de-masted opponent.

    Here is a report of a game where I do something similar, albeit with sloops against a smaller frigate.
    https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/158...s-take-frigate

    So what do you think about this? And do you use ball and chain or grapeshot a lot? In which circumstances?

  2. #2
    2nd Lieutenant
    UK

    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    TX
    Log Entries
    806
    Blog Entries
    1
    Name
    Hugh

    Default

    I make pretty extensive use of grapeshot (Canister). It is particularly effective when facing a much larger ship. Not a lot of other people like grape, probably because it is very short range, but I have won many a battle by stripping a 1st or 3rd rate of its crew until it is combat ineffective.

    I did an analysis on it a while ago. Ill dig it up for you.

    http://www.sailsofglory.org/showthre...ll=1#post63456

  3. #3
    Admiral of the Blue.
    Admiral
    England

    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Notts
    Log Entries
    7,055
    Blog Entries
    22
    Name
    Rob

    Default

    Most of my battles are conducted double shotted as befits an English attitude of get in close savage the enemy and then board. I have not used chain more than a couple of times, but am getting to quite like Canister for clearing the decks of crewmen, especially now we have the option of Carronades.
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

  4. #4
    Captain
    United States

    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    WA
    Log Entries
    2,980
    Name
    [RESTRICTED]

    Default

    Now imagine Canister on a 74 loaded from keel to QD with nothing BUT carronades... *evil snickering*
    --Diamondback
    PMH, SME, TLA, BBB

  5. #5
    Admiral of the Blue.
    Admiral
    England

    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Notts
    Log Entries
    7,055
    Blog Entries
    22
    Name
    Rob

    Default

    I may well try that one of these days DB.
    I am still reading a lot of Captains reports where they double shotted Carronades with Canister, now just imagine that. Even canister over ball has been mentioned.
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

  6. #6
    Captain
    United States

    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    WA
    Log Entries
    2,980
    Name
    [RESTRICTED]

    Default

    We know at Trafalgar Nelson had Victory's loaded like Super-Size-Me shotguns with buck-n-ball (a so-called "Duplex Load," where we load buckshot and then a slug into the same shell so the first big penetrator helps soften the target for the smaller ones following)... Double Grape might need to be a Captain Special Ability, but I could see Buck & Ball as a one-time Opening Salvo for everybody, or requiring a certain number of phases without any firing on that side before you can do it again.

    I think that previously-linked thread had my discussion about how Ares carronade rules extrapolated to all-carronade loadouts would make HMS Egmont a floating meatgrinder... I don't remember if they did that to a Temeraire too, or if that was just another trial of "Top to Bottom 24's."
    --Diamondback
    PMH, SME, TLA, BBB

  7. #7
    Admiral of the Blue.
    Admiral
    England

    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Notts
    Log Entries
    7,055
    Blog Entries
    22
    Name
    Rob

    Default

    An all Carronade ship like a Temeraire would certainly be a force to be reckoned with DB.
    For simplicity of calculation I use a fifty fifty mix on my HEIC Nottingham, and so far that has been pretty destructive.
    Rob.
    Last edited by Bligh; 03-21-2017 at 05:50.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

  8. #8
    2nd Lieutenant
    UK

    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    TX
    Log Entries
    806
    Blog Entries
    1
    Name
    Hugh

    Default

    MI think that double canister would be too powerful. I wouldn't use it in my games as it would end the battles too quickly.

  9. #9

    Default

    I prefer standard ball shots.

    Best choice if you have a moving enemy.

    The biggest problem in my eyes: ball shot reduces firepower - grape shot not. I know grape shots can be very deadly if you stern rake an enemy with your 100% firepower, but that is a rare Situation, because you have to come very near.

  10. #10
    Admiral of the Blue.
    Admiral
    England

    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Notts
    Log Entries
    7,055
    Blog Entries
    22
    Name
    Rob

    Default

    I generally use Grape/ Canister when boarding to clear the decks.
    Usually single shotted as there is rarely enough time to double shot on approach, or once you are made fast alongside.
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

  11. #11
    Master & Commander
    Sweden

    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    Linköping
    Log Entries
    2,212
    Blog Entries
    6
    Name
    Jonas

    Default

    I will only use grape or chain if it is demanded by a scenario. To my memory close range ball is better in most ways and have a longer range.

    Double grape would indeed be interesting but the range of that should be shortened as ordinary double shot should be, both due to historical reasons and of game balance reasons.

  12. #12
    Admiral of the Blue.
    Admiral
    England

    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Notts
    Log Entries
    7,055
    Blog Entries
    22
    Name
    Rob

    Default

    I was not just thinking of scenarios Jonas but in friendly games where you just try out whatever you can from the rules.
    For scenarios as I said I only use grape/canister in the last act of coming alongside and boarding actions so you can't get much closer than that.
    As long as it is historically correct I don't mind using it.
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

  13. #13
    1st Lt
    UK

    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    South Glos
    Log Entries
    1,094
    Name
    Chris

    Default

    I must admit that since starting playing the game, since the KS delivery,
    I have never used the chain shot, I know what it is supposed to be used for, slowing down and dismasting, but at shows we only play the Standard rules so dont use the special damage, it takes too long to explain to new players for the time they have available.
    Most games ships are down and out either by doubleshot first fire, or longshot or boarding.
    I have used grape to finish off a crew but my own preference is to stand off and hit the opponent before he gets to close range, so even with double shot its light damage.
    Well thats the theory anyway :)

  14. #14
    Master & Commander
    United States

    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Oregon
    Log Entries
    2,015
    Name
    Chris

    Default

    Grape and Canister are nice -- but for engaging a SOL, you need a lot of Balls. ;)

  15. #15
    2nd Lieutenant
    UK

    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    TX
    Log Entries
    806
    Blog Entries
    1
    Name
    Hugh

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by csadn View Post
    Grape and Canister are nice -- but for engaging a SOL, you need a lot of Balls. ;)

    Haha very good.

    Grape will make them strike faster though, take a look at the maths.

  16. #16
    Admiral of the Blue.
    Admiral
    England

    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Notts
    Log Entries
    7,055
    Blog Entries
    22
    Name
    Rob

    Default

    Grape is also good if your cupidity inclines you towards obtaining the maximum prize money for a less damaged ship.



    Bligh.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

  17. #17
    Midshipman
    Australia

    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Queensland
    Log Entries
    127
    Name
    Alastair

    Default

    I like to get in close for my for my 1st shot and use double ball (preferably a stern rake) then after I use single ball due to reloading time, I also use chain shot as the action dictates. Have not use canister yet will have to make an effort to do so. Also I never fire at long range.

  18. #18
    Landsman
    United States

    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Location
    Idaho
    Log Entries
    11
    Name
    Richard

    Default

    As a newbie, I have yet to use chain shot, but have used grapeshot in support of boarding actions. We haven't used the carronades rule yet, so I will bring that up at our game in 2 weeks and see if we want to try it out.

    I just finished reading "Ships of Oak, Guns of Iron" by Ronald D. Utt which is about the War of 1812 and an excellent book. An interesting point he brought up was the use of double shot in carronades and their general ineffectiveness. The extra ball reduced the effectiveness of the smaller powder charge used in the carronades and the double shot often failed to penetrate the scantlings of the target ships, often lodging in the scantlings themselves or bouncing off (see page 256). Something to think about!

  19. #19
    Admiral of the Blue.
    Admiral
    England

    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Notts
    Log Entries
    7,055
    Blog Entries
    22
    Name
    Rob

    Default

    The Carronades are not allowed to double shot in the rules, negating their power in my opinion. However, as there are numerous references in Captains reports of double and even triple shotted broadsides, I always allow double shot to be loaded along with the normal guns loading time for single. However, if you adopt the rule for discharging every turn, then I only allow single shot to be used, as they would not have time to reload double shot even with the shorter barrels.
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

  20. #20
    Master & Commander
    UK

    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Northumberland
    Log Entries
    1,699
    Blog Entries
    2
    Name
    Neil

    Default

    I find a balance in my solo only games is to reduce the double shot range down to C/D range, ie 1/4 ruler length. It is still a game changer but you have to get a lot closer. Last solo game I double shotted a Spaniard with Ball and Cannister, nasty stuff.

  21. #21
    Admiral of the Blue.
    Admiral
    England

    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Notts
    Log Entries
    7,055
    Blog Entries
    22
    Name
    Rob

    Default

    Interesting idea Neil.
    I must try it myself. I have only mixed it in one game and that was ball and grape. Never tried canister.
    I wonder what double canister would do?
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

  22. #22
    Master & Commander
    Sweden

    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    Linköping
    Log Entries
    2,212
    Blog Entries
    6
    Name
    Jonas

    Default

    I use that too, Neil. It's just too good in the original game rules. The historical use you come by is often at pistol shot distance so I have no problem with shortening their range.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •